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Sticking valves on new, Bach 180-37...how often to oil?


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bluetranemiles
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:31 am    Post subject: Sticking valves on new, Bach 180-37...how often to oil? Reply with quote

This just has me a little worried. I'm getting some sticking valve issues on my new Bach Stradivarius (still under mfg. warranty). Third valve seems to be the most prone to sticking. I use all ultra pure products, including their oils and greases on slides. Have been trying to oil the valves everyday, sometimes forget. I have a pretty clean, vertical valve strike. I did the proper break-in thing of wiping down the valves in the early weeks to get rid of the black stuff. A little bit of yellow (mineral?) deposits on valves. Time to try a new valve oil? I thought Ultra Pure was the best and had success with it on my previous Conn horn. Any input would be great.

Thanks,
Reid
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no "best" valve oil. I used Ultra-Pure and it was fine on all my horns except my Xeno. I finally settled on Hetman #1 for that trumpet.

This is not a recommendation for Hetman or against Ultra-Pure. It is a suggestion to try a half dozen different types of oil. A few bottles of valve oil is a very inexpensive investment compared to the price of a new trumpet.
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nordlandstrompet
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's about time to clean the whole horn properly!
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Irving
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could take it back. If it were brand new, you could exchange it for another horn. If not, and you do take it back, chances are that you will be without a horn for a while,since they would need to send the horn back to the factory.

You could also try completely cleaning your horn with soap and water.
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Mnc
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the same trouble on my new Bach two years ago, did the break-in
procedure, oiling everyday after wiping down pistons and cases, used
Ultra-Pure oil and grease. Second and third valves would stick, sometimes
not even returning. I ended up having to take the horn to the shop twice
where they were re-lapped. The problem finally cleared up but was a huge pain in the a**, down time with the horn and plenty of miles driven. Also switched to Hetman's #1 and have had no trouble since.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to clean the connectors between the valves.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes it takes awhile for new, tight valves to properly seat. Using a synthetic in the beginning can delay the seating process, because it does not allow the final wearing-in to occur. Consider using a petroleum oil for the first months until the valves work smoothly, then shift back to the synthetic.

The two flugelhorn I've owned each had one sticky valve that required some time before they would work reliably. Daily oiling and regular swabbing with a clean microfiber cloth eventually allowed each piston and case to mate well. In each case, the result was a full set of quick, reliable pistons.

I would hesitate to have the new piston lapped, because it is such a fine adjustment, usually, to arrive at the proper clearance. The chances of making the part too loose and shortening its useful life are pretty high, in my experience. If the valve is just a little finicky, some patience and diligence will go a long way toward a good long-term solution.

Brian
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KansasTrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you also run a swab through the casing? You can get as much gunk off of hte valves as you can and still have junk floating aroundi n the casings. I have seen a lot of brand new Bach (Bbs, C, custom orders, etc) that had rouge left in the casings When they were shipped from the factory. The oil will break this stuff down, but its best to get as much of it out as possible.
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be "voodoo" to some, but after actually looking at what comes off the valves in this procedure, I've at least convinced myself that it is valuable. I saw it most clearly with a new "low cost" trumpet I picked up not too long ago. The valves were, how to put this politely... I give up. Crap out of the box. There, that's out of the way. But it was so cheap, I wasn't expecting a lot. So I decided to see if I could rectify the problem without doing anything radical, like trying to lap pistons myself.

The process I used was very simple, and at least in my opinion, not invasive to the valve block or pistons, such as using lapping compound (or toothpaste as some people suggest).

It was however, time consuming. The first thing I did was flush the instrument out extensively with room temperature water and mild liquid dishwashing soap. I took a cleaning brush (from a cleaning set made for trumpets) and very carefully swabbed out the valve casings, then took the snake from the same set (no metal parts) and snaked out all the tubing in between the valves, the slides, leadpipe, etc. In short, I got it as close to "squeaky clean" before playing more than a couple quick notes on it when I took it out of the box.

Why not play it first? If there is left-over tiny pieces of metal, solder leftovers, burrs, whatever I don't want to start grinding those against the valve block or pistons if I can help it. Maybe paranoid, maybe prudent if it can be prevented.

I then lubed the slides sparingly (so as not to have excess get into the valves), and oiled the valve block and the pistons very liberally. Then I sat down and just fingered through chromatically (think Clarke #1). They were still pretty bad. No noticeable improvement to be honest. But I stuck with it for another 10-15 minutes.

Then I took 3 bright white plastic cups, and filled them about half way with distilled water. Remove the valves, place one in each of the 3 plastic cups. Stir them around to essentially try and flush them a bit (despite the valve oil involved).

Now for the wild part. I just let them sit for about another 10-15 minutes, came back, and there was a quite obvious layer of grayish/blackish "sludge" settled down onto the bottom of each cup.

The evidence at the bottom of the cups inspired me to continue, so I once again flushed the horn out with soap and water, re-did all of the above with the brushes and snake, re-oiled, and went back to working through the valves again.

To make a long story short, I repeated this sequence probably six or seven times, each time the residue in the cups (I cleaned them out each time) was less noticeable until you couldn't really notice it anymore, and the valves operated smoother when put back in the horn each time. The end result was what were originally horrible valves were at least "average" or typical of a low-cost budget horn. Certainly nothing you would expect from a Charlie Melk valve job, but definitely playable.

I can't help but think the above process, although time consuming, would be of at least some benefit to ANY new horn even a "pro" model, and (correct me if I'm wrong) I can't see how it would be harmful at all.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KansasTrumpet wrote:
Have you also run a swab through the casing? You can get as much gunk off of hte valves as you can and still have junk floating aroundi n the casings. I have seen a lot of brand new Bach (Bbs, C, custom orders, etc) that had rouge left in the casings When they were shipped from the factory. The oil will break this stuff down, but its best to get as much of it out as possible.


Indeed. I was told (wonder by whom?) that the brass in the casings was porous and that they will still release the lapping compound over time.

You should swab the casings out often anyways.

As for how often to oil, every day you play. Doesn't take but a drop or three to refresh what's already on the valves.

Tom
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trmptz
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you cleaned the entire horn thouroughly?
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Randy TX never play a new horn out of the box with out a really good cleaning and I do mean really good. You would not believe all the junk still in a horn that tot he naked eye looks clean!

I use stronger cleaner's then he does but keep in mind I am using them diluted in a bath tube for the entire horn and only 100% in the bores of the piston assembly and the pistons soak also in glass jar or drinking glass. I call plastic based glass's cups since they are not made of glass.

My preferred cleaner is Castrol Super Clean or one of the generic knock off purple engine degreaser sold in gallon jug's. It is the same chemical in 409 and in Simple Green but far more concentrated. I let the pistons soak in 100% Castrol Super Clean after I have gently wiped them clean by hand first. I soak my bore brush in it and then scrub the insides of the piston bores with it. I let the pistons soak in it for about 30 minute or how ever long I let the main body of the trumpet soak in the tub.

In the tub I use warm water never hot and I put 2-4 cups of cleaner in the tub. Castrol Super Clean is a tad more concentrated then the Generic's so I use 2 cups of that if I am using the Generic Purple Stuff then I use 4 cups. I mix it around int he tub with enough warm water to almost cover the horn. I then put a nice thick Turkish towel in the bottom of the tub to cushion the horn and prevent scratching.

Every time I clean my horn once a month I do the valves in the above fashion. I use 1/2 as much cleaner though in the tub though since my horns are not allowed to get that dirty and their will never again be manufacturing waste product and such inside of them.

Oh and I use one glass not 3 for the pistons so as not to waste cleaner.

If I start to see any thing like oil not wanting to wet the piston is it runs off or it bounces off I will clean the piston with dish soap and do a white distilled vinegar soak for 15-30 minutes. Acetic Acid is very weak and only 3%-5% of it in the vinegar the rest is distilled water.

If you going to use a dish washing detergent or liquid soap look for one that does not have any kind of "Bleach Alternative " and one that does not contain any silicones anythign ending in "icone"

As for slide greases if they contain silicone leave them alone most people are too ham fisted to be trusted with anything like Depont Vaccum Grease which is silicone grease that was designed for machines that need to maintain high levels of vaccum. It works great as long as you apply it sparingly and do not get it into the valves. Because almost no one will tell you what is in their grease I make my own with USP grade Lanolin and Petro Jelly or Lanolin and 3 in 1 oil. In this way I never have to worry about anything I do not want ending up in my valves because I know what is in my slide grease. I even recall kids in middle school and H.S. using Crisco for Cork Grease and for Slide Grease so slide grease does not have to be exotic to work. If the slides are parallel and lapped properly from the factory anything that seals better then water should work well and be fast. If not then the factory did not do a good job on the slides!

As for break in I can not say how synthetics will affect break in of a horn. I know amongst automotive engines and transmissions the old myth of synthetics not allowing for a timely and thorough break-in of the parts has long since been proven to be false. The asperities aka "jagged metal surfaces" are such that nothing would prevent them from slaming into each other and knocking the high spots down. In fact even though most oils have really low levels today of anti-wear additives compared to say 10 years ago to extend catalytic converter life we know that an oil with more anti-wear additives usually ZDDP or Molybdenum disulfide actually aids in the break in procedure and does not interfere with it. So I think it is unlikely that synthetic oils with no real additives in them would get in the way of proper break-in of trumpet valves but have no real evidence or industry backed standardized testing to confirm this. Pistons in a trumpet though act just like sliding bearing surfaces in an engines valve train ie like cam followers or lifers so research on those parts should like wise apply to trumpets since the mechanism of action are so similar.

I would not do anything radical like lapping of any kind even with toothpaste because this horn is still under warranty. I would if anything send it back to Bach and have them make it right. The down side of course is that they will probably lapp the snot out of it as quickly as they can to make it work properly in the least amount of time possible. So down the line that valve will leak before the other's do.

Check the plastic guide too and make sure it is molded right if their is anything wrong with it then it could cause all of this. Molded plastic parts often will get a small flaw if anything goes wrong and it might not have been caught by quality control!
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bluetranemiles
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the great responses! I did give the whole trumpet soap and water bath the other day. I'm going to thoroughly swab out the valve block to see if that helps. I have a lot of Blue Juice left (previous favorite oil), so maybe I'll be trying that next. If things don't resolve, the horn may be heading back to the Bach factory. The non-synthetic oil idea may also be a good one. I'll keep y'all posted.

Reid
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetranemiles wrote:
Thanks for all the great responses! I did give the whole trumpet soap and water bath the other day. I'm going to thoroughly swab out the valve block to see if that helps. I have a lot of Blue Juice left (previous favorite oil), so maybe I'll be trying that next. If things don't resolve, the horn may be heading back to the Bach factory. The non-synthetic oil idea may also be a good one. I'll keep y'all posted.

Reid


Reid,

To make sure the cases are free of the synthetic oil (molecules embed in the porous brass), you can soak a lint free cloth in white vinegar and swab the bores to strip off any residue. It would be good to soak the pistons in it, too. 5 minutes is sufficient and won't hurt anything.

Brian
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bluetranemiles wrote:
Thanks for all the great responses! I did give the whole trumpet soap and water bath the other day. I'm going to thoroughly swab out the valve block to see if that helps. I have a lot of Blue Juice left (previous favorite oil), so maybe I'll be trying that next. If things don't resolve, the horn may be heading back to the Bach factory. The non-synthetic oil idea may also be a good one. I'll keep y'all posted.

Reid


Blue Juice is a petroleum oil. It also has some anti-corrosion agents in it, though... which may or may not be an issue.

Perhaps a change to Holton oil might be warranted. Something to think about.

Tom
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philosofriend
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a believer in the following horn washing technique. In my experience it is a simple way to get out the crud that slows down the valves. Put a good squirt of simple hand dishwashing detergent in the bell. Pour lukewarm water in the bell (if you have the little hose at the kitchen sink it works fine). Wiggle the valves while the water is going through. Run the water untill it comes out clear. Don't use real hot or real cold water unless you want to take all the lacquer off the horn! If your first valve slider works easy you may have to hold it so the water won't blow it off.
My theory is that the rubbing of the valves in their casings puts the pressure precisely on the crud that is causing the problem. The water and soap escorts the dirt away.
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clean the horn. Well. Then try Hetman, Holton, Blue Juice, Yamaha Synthetic, Fat Cat, Bell's Super Lube, PDQ, Zaja, Viper, Bach, Schilke, lamp oil, or any other brand. Just don't try them all at once.

I've used all of these (and more) except for PDQ and lamp oil on many different Bachs and they all worked great. Give it time and things will be working fine.
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bluetranemiles
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for more good info. I may try the vinegar technique, Brian. I've got a whole bunch of Blue Juice hanging around so I hope that that's the ticket.

Cheers,
Reid
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bluetranemiles
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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue juice after a good valve and valve block cleaning already seems to be better...fingers crossed...
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stanton
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though my general preferred valve oil is Al Cass, I hear from a few folks that Blue Juice is a good break-in oil... though it smells like gasoline. For years I used Zaja (liked the grape scent) but it didn't mix well with other oils.

A couple years ago I bought a Max (w Kanstul valves) and no matter how many cleanings, or what value oil they were still sticky. I finally gave the horn to Fred Powell who refitted the valves and now they are the best.
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