Better every year . . . .

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 4:53 pm Post subject:

When I talk to trumpeters who lament about how they used to have much more range and endurance X years ago, I just want to beat them over the head and ask why they don't forget everything they know and give the Pivot System a 100% effort.

There is so much superstition among trumpeters (it's all about air, or it's 10% air and 90% mental) that most of them just won't let go and accept that there are certain physical principles involved in trumpet playing. As long as they're defying the principles pertaining to their specific physical type, they're going to continue to deteriorate every year of their lives.

I'm so grateful I embraced what Doc Reinhardt had to teach, and I'm also grateful that my chops get stronger and my range gets better every year. And according to Doc, that's how it really ought to be.

I guess we just need to "forgive them, for they know not what they do," because they definitely don't know what they're talking about.

Eight years ago I hadn't played a trumpet for nearly 15 years, and today I'm far better than I've ever dreamed I could be on the trumpet. Man, that's really worth something to me.

Thanks, Doc!!!

Rich
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BeboppinFool · Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:24 pm Post subject:

. . . am I the only one around here who's getting better every year?

Or are the rest of you guys falling apart?

(Hey, Dave W., same answer on this one?)

Rich
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Puttin’ On The Ritz

Bozzaman · Veteran Member Joined: 10 Jul 2003 Posts: 323

I'll take the dare to reply.

Throughtout most of the 90's, I relied on the same old gigs-weddings, church, philharmonic, and theater. No formal study, just kept the chops in shape to play the next gig. But I noticed that I kept getting better at everything (I did have rather good formal training). I couldn't stay away from the horn. So I started wondering what it was that I was really supposed to do. I took a few lessons and convinced my wife (no, she convinced me) that I ought to get the next degree so that I could make a better contribution (even with three young children at home).

So, after making the right calls and putting in a lot of work, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Never, ever ignore your dreams. They need you.

Bozzaman
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BSC (Brass Sound Creations) Bb; Bach Mt. Vernon 1962 Bb; Conn 38B Constellation; Bach 239GH, 25S C; Kanstul CCT 920 Picc.; Schilke E3 D/Eb; Getzen Eterna Flugel; Courtois Cornet @ 1966; Naumann 3-Hole; Etc.

PH · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:39 am Post subject:

Rich,

I think EVERY diligently practicing trumpet player should get better every year. I know I am!

Part of it is that I now truly understand that trumpet playing is 95% mental and 5% physical

BeboppinFool · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:45 am Post subject:

trickg · Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:00 am Post subject:

PH said: - - "I think EVERY diligently practicing trumpet player...."

Ahhh, that really is the key isn't it, diligent practice? At present, I have better range and endurance, and in some ways a better sound than I ever have and it does just seem to be getting better. However, I wish that I had the accuracy that I had 10 - 12 years ago when I played trumpet for a living as an Army Bandsman and spent a goodly amount of time participating in some pretty outstanding ensembles (brass quintet, stage band) and a pretty fair chunk of time behind the horn just practicing as well.

But, back then I was single with no car, no kids, no house, I lived in the barracks and I had nothing better to do than to go to the big storage room at the end of the building on the second floor and work on long tones or articulation exercises or flexibility studies for 2 hours or more on top of all of the rehearsals and gigs. Life has a real funny way of putting up some pretty serious obstacles in front of getting enough solid, quality time behind the horn.

Do I sound like I'm complaining? To the contrary, I have a wonderful, supportive wife, two smart, good looking, healthy kids, (they take after their mother, thank goodness!) a great house and a decent paying career that unfortunately has nothing to do with music. My only regret about leaving the Army Music world is that I don't get the time on my horn that I used to, but I didn't realize how much of that time I was going to lose prior to leaving. But, since you can't ever really go back, the best thing for me to do is to forge ahead, take what I can get and do the best I can with the time I've got.
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

95% mental........WRONG FOR 95% OF TRUMPET PLAYERS.

I remember Doc saying;"We must forgive them, for they know not what they do".

If you are lucky enough to be born with the right facial structure, lips and teeth that line up when you play, and about 80 or so other "natural" playing advantages, (in other words, if you are part of this LUCKY 5%) then maybe, just maybe the 95% mental thing will work .

Chris

Wilktone · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:51 am Post subject:

Ah, there's nothing like a little controversy to to get a topic jump-started!

Sorry, Bill, I understand why you state playing is 95% mental, but I'm going to have to side with the other guys on this one. Maybe a better way of stating it is that "Correct practice eventually makes good brass playing 95% mental and 5% physical."

On the other hand, I try to not seperate mental and physical too much in my playing and teaching, so I have a bit of a bias against your statement anyway.

To address Rich's initial post, my own introduction to the Pivot System came in the form of an embouchure type switch, after a long period of time where my technique was not progressing much at all. A few years later I decided it was time to really tackle the Pivot System fully, not just with regards to my embouchure type. My playing had been stagnating, this time due to too much teaching and not enough time to practice and perform. I find that the same amount of practice time focused with suggestions by Dr. Reinhardt allowed me to get more out of the same amount of practice. It was at this time that I began to really understand the mechanics of playing, and that it actually can be helpful to focus purely on one or two very minor mechanical points - even if they didn't appear to be giving me any problems. I also began to discover difficulties I was having that I never knew were there.

How's that, Rich?

Dave W.
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wilktone.com

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:15 am Post subject:

I normally actively avoid several of the forums on TH, specifically this one, and the Caruso, Gordon, and SuperChops forums, because I have nothing to contribute to the discussion other than, "I think there's a better way to go about that." You can look it up -- this is my first post in any of those forums. (Be gentle...) Normally, if I access a thread from the "Active Forum Topics" list on the front page which is in these forums, I leap for the "Back" button as soon as I notice.

Today, however, before I saw the words "Donald S. Reinhardt" I saw, "There is so much superstition among trumpeters (it's all about air, or it's 10% air and 90% mental)..."

Well, I can't just leave that alone, can I?

So, Rich, consider yourself invited to the Debating Forum. You go first!

BeboppinFool · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:54 am Post subject:

Hello, Nonsense Eliminator,

I'm thinking that if you're so anti-Reinhardt that you're quick to hit your BACK button, then maybe you're one of those unfortunates who heard some misinformation about Reinhardt at one time and are forever engaged in "contempt prior to investigation."

Maybe you're also one of those guys whose chops just happened to develop perfectly in spite of bad teachers and you can't relate to anybody who's ever had chop problems.

Maybe you really have no business posting here if you're not interested in finding out about the teachings of Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt.

I posted once in the debating forum, and had my effort to start a topic deleted by Charly Raymond . . . apparently it wasn't precisely aligned with his precious rules of engagement.

Why don't you stay over there in the debating forum, and we'll stay here in the Reinhardt forum?

I like that idea.

Rich
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Puttin’ On The Ritz

scream · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:50 am Post subject:

I find the moniker "Nonsense Eliminator" a misnomer when they espouse their own non-sensical drivel. It must be great to have had no embouchure problems coming up as a brass player.

We hope that all that come here would want to learn about Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt and the Pivot System.
I would say that the majority of us have experienced other methods of instruction that did not directly address our INDIVIDUAL problems. Teaching a brass instrument should NOT be a cookie cutter event for a teacher or a student.

Yes, we are a close knit bunch of Reinhardt students and proponents. We see the LOGIC in his teaching and as far as we are concerned, LOGIC wins out here. If you don't understand the full scope of his approach, you only have a small part of the picture which would do more harm than good.

Come here if you want to learn....
_________________
Paul Garrett
Sandy Springs, GA

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
Hubert H. Humphrey
US politician (1911 - 1978)

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:00 am Post subject:

Rich --

FWIW, I have nothing in particular against Reinhardt -- of all the teachers who espouse a physical approach, he seems to be the only one who has bothered to even attempt to take into account the great physical variation among trumpet players. However, I don't think a physical approach is beneficial or necessary for most players.

The reason I don't post in the Reinhardt forum is that I generally don't have anything to contribute. My knowledge of his teaching is minimal at best. However, when you call the teachings of Bill Adam "superstition", you enter into a domain about which I happen to know something. I happen to think it might be useful to explain in a reasoned format why I feel your understanding of a non-physical approach is flawed, and I would be interested to read what you have to say in reply. I happen to think that such a discussion would be more appropriate elsewhere, both to level the playing field and to prevent cluttering this forum with off-topic material.

If you would rather launch veiled insults at me and my teachers than discuss this matter intelligently, that is your decision. If, however, you would like to engage in a reasoned discussion, you know where to find me. You're not the only one who's had run-ins with the Official Debating Forum Censor Board, so if you'd like to suggest an alternate venue I'm all ears.

FunkySmurf · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:05 am Post subject:

Rich,
When you ask why people don't give the Pivot System a 100% effort. The main issue for me is when people on their own respective forums say "Make sure to find a qualified teacher in ??method??". This is a major deterrent for me, with the main problem being of finding those qualified teachers.

http://trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=4601&forum=23
http://trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=4600&forum=23

I bought the Pivot System encyclopedia, read it, and would not give it a try without a teacher. Its been a few months since I bought it, but if I remember, a key item is being able to type yourself, which I'm not able to do on my own.

Perhaps it might be a good idea for all of the 'Method' forums to keep a thread on teachers (students of respective methods) in different geographic areas. I've seen Dave Sheetz's page, and the list of teachers is not very exhaustive.

In closing, there was a period a few months back where I would have given the Pivot System 100%, if I could have gotten in the door. I also tried SuperChops in a limited way, but didn't like my sound (maybe I was doing it wrong since I didn't have a teacher for that either).
Now I have found a teacher who does not teach Pivot, but am giving that 100% and making excellent progress.

- Rob

PH · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:18 am Post subject:

I totally agree with NE that it appears to me that the Reinhardt folks understand the physical aspects of brass playing/teaching as well or better than anyone. Mr. Adam and Carmine understood things to this level as well, but used different approaches to teaching and practice in order to achieve their excellent results.

The only "mythology" I see is when people underestimate the significance of the mind in playing the horn (or in doing anything else). The mind tells your body what to do. My body doesn't play the trumpet (or type, or breathe, or anything) without my mind. Therefore, the mind is the most important part of the equation, no matter how one understands the physical process/system.

If my engine is running great but the gas pedal, ignition, and the steering wheel (the controls of the car) are disfunctional my car doesn't go.

The mind is the control panel for trumpet playing. The body does what the mind tells it to. Think poorly and you play poorly. Think well and you will play well.

We are only arguing semantics and such, guys. We aren't disagreeing about playing.

p.s. If you think I am one of the blessed few who had no mechanical deficiencies in my younger days then you didn't hear me when I was 18, 28, or 38. Back then I was getting stuck in 3rd and 4th chair in my high school band, or being refused for admission 3 different times for admission to my favorite music school (and present employer) due to my woeful performance level, or being fired from gigs in New York becuase I had no sound/range/endurance. Now, at age 48, I can actually really play.

It's good to be a late bloomer.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-07-22 12:38 ]

_bugleboy · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:51 am Post subject:

I posted once in the debating forum, and had my effort to start a topic deleted by Charly Raymond . . . apparently it wasn't precisely aligned with his precious rules of engagement.

Rich, don't you think you're being a little unfair. Your thread wasn't deleted at all, but transferred to the Performers forum.

The DF was set up to offer a forum where posters would be required to stay on task and only respond with meaningful replies, pertinent to the topic being debated. The "Rules" were set up to be as unrestrictive as possible in this regard, but still have reasonable parameters.

Replying to a post and initiating a debate involve different responsibilities for the poster. I set up the the rules the best that I could and have edited them many times to try to make it as clear as possible.

The topic that you initiated was calling for subjective opinions, more in the spirit of a poll than a debate. That goes on all the time in all the open forums and I mentioned that on the thread and we proceded to discuss it somewhat there. But you left the DF without actually finishing that discussion so I relocated the thread to the Performers forum.

http://trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=3827&forum=10&12

The DF was not intended to be just another discussion forum.

Since NE has suggested the DF, he must feel that he will get a fair shake there, inspite of the exchanges he and I have had on other forums. I'm surprised that you seem to feel differently. Being unfair is not one of the character traits that I have been accused of so far.

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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2003-07-22 16:35 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Hey all you Adams guys......

Lets talk about who turned out the largest number of famous players.

Bill Adams- Charlie Davis, Jerry Hey are the the only two famous one I know of. I'm sure that he probably had some great "un sung" students, but check this out.........

Dr. Donald S. Reinhardt- Lin Biviano, Lyn Nicholson, Ray Wetzel, Buddy Childers, Don Palladino, Alec Fila, Dick Nash, Kia Winding, Trummy Young, Bill Harris, Wallace Roney,Bernie Glow, Bud Brisbois, Johnny Madrid, Ray Connif, Johnny Mandel, Billy Rauch, Quentin "Butter" Jackson, Warren Covington, Art Depew, Doc Cheatam, Stan Mark, Milt Bernhart, Rany Purcell, Nick travis, Red Rodney, Jimmy McPartland, and John Swanna.

I think in sheer numbers alone Reinhardt speaks for itself.

There is NO ONE in the history of brass playing that can boast such a roster.

Chris

PH · Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:39 pm Post subject:

No pi$$ing contests allowed. If we were to do that I suspect it would be a draw.

Charley, Jerry, Gary Grant, Larry Hall, Randy Brecker, Chris Botti, Susan Slaughter, Bob Platt, John Rommel, Jerry Tyree, Liesl Whitaker, Walter Blanton, Danny Barber, Greg Wing, Lynn Nicholson...

Basically a similar list of quality students, but about a generation younger. Also, remember that Doc did it in a major east coast city. Mr. Adam did it in a midwestern town of 35,000 people 60 miles or more away from the nearest real city, airport, or interstate highway.

p.s. On a thread in another forum someone mentions Kenny Dorham as a Reinhardt student. I'd be interested in anyone verifying that.

p.s.s. Does anyone have contact with Lynn Nicholson? It would sure be interesting to get his take on this. He is the only person I know of who studied extensively with both Doc & Adam.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2003-07-23 00:08 ]

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Thats no draw pal....

You named a few, but even the best of them don't come near Reinhardt's list.

On the other hand.......Some (almost all of them !) of the players I have named you are among THE GREATEST names in the brass world, most of the names on Doc's list deserve a star on the "Brass Player Walk of Fame".

It's funny you should use the phrase "pissing contest". Lyn Nicholson and I have been close friends for years, and that was a favorite phrase of his.

Sometimes, brass playing is a pissing contest.

Looks like Renhardt could piss farther than all of them.

Chris

[ This Message was edited by: Mr.Hollywood on 2003-07-23 04:27 ]

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 5:46 am Post subject:

A couple of observations about pissing contests:

1.) Quantity and distance matter, but so do context, duration and the number of other people pissing in the same direction.

As PH has correctly observed, there is a generation of difference between those lists. The job market has changed a lot in that time, particularly for jazz/lead/commercial players; and the way people study instruments has changed too. ("Having probelms on the gig? Go see Doc!" vs. "Want to learn the instrument? So study with Mr. Adam for four years!") The issue of duration won't be settled in the near future, but outside of TH I have encountered very few Reinhardt students. (Two, to be exact -- one the student of the other.)

The final issue, of similar urinary orientation, is perhaps the most telling. Mr. Hollywood asserted that, "There is NO ONE in the history of brass playing that can boast such a roster." I would submit that Arnold Jacobs has a pretty good track record in that department -- I know very few symphonic players who haven't either studied with Mr. Jacobs personally, or studied with someone who did. Vince Cichowicz is another teacher with a pretty respectable resume. And both of these men teach/taught the same principles as Mr. Adam.

2.) How much or how far doesn't matter as long as you're at least getting a decent amount out.

There are too many variables in the mix to regard comparing numbers as anything but an apples and oranges proposition. The critical question is, "Does this individual make enough positive difference in enough students, with a variety of problems, to demonstrate that it's not a fluke?"

Now, once that question's been asked, things get interesting. Of course, somebody who wasn't keen on Mr. Adam's teaching could say, "Okay, he turned out some good students. But he got to audition those students -- he just picked the ones with no chop problems to begin with!" Somebody with a skeptical opinion of Dr. Reinhardt's teaching could say, "Hey, you give somebody some sensible exercises and give them confidence that they can get better, they get better."

Well, I have some doors that aren't going to paint themselves... but I'll be back!

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

NE,

Your points are well taken, Reinhardt mostly dealt with the commercial playing world.

So maybe I should re-phrase my statement.

"No one can boast such a roster of legendary jazz and lead players."

Chris