I don't get post 60s Freddie Hubbard. Your thoughts?

kehaulani

Title says it. And this is not a thread dissing Freddie, arguably one of the finest jazz trumpeters ever. Just looking to see if my experiences are similar to others, or if there are things I'm missing that I could pick up on.

I loved his work with Blakey, Sonny on "East Broadway Rundown", the exceptional playing on "Empyrean Isles" and "Maiden Voyage" and so much more. But I realised that almost all of it is 1960s Freddie and, since the early 70s, I heard very little to me which seemed to me to be at or above his earlier playing.

What are your observations and if you think Freddie has been consistently creative in the 70s and 80s as in the 60s, could you please give me some examples of what to listen to? I - and maybe there are others who feel the same - appreciate it.
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PakWaan · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject:

I love "First Light" - great album. It came out in 1971, so not too far into the '70s....
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PhxHorn · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:53 pm Post subject:

Check out the Freddie Hubbard/Woody Shaw Sessions. And then check out Above and Beyond, Keystone Bop, Live (Just Jazz label), Live from Concerts by the Sea, Back to Birdland, Straight Life, Sunflower (Milt Jackson), Joe Henderson Quintet at the Lighthouse.

pied piper · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject: freddie hubbard post 60's

Sky Dive,
Red Clay,
First Light,
VSOP,
Eternal Triangle w/ Woody Shaw

spitvalve · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:41 pm Post subject:

"Sweet Return" from 1984. To my knowledge the last really good album he made before his chop and health problems. You can skip over all of the stuff he did for Columbia in the mid-70's, though "Liquid Love" has a couple of good cuts where Freddie stretches out a little more. "Windjammer" is all disco and not much jazz--if you love Freddie you'll avoid that one like the plague.

There's a hard-to-find album--don't think it's been released on CD--from 1976 called "Mel Lewis and Friends" with Michael Brecker, Freddie, Ron Carter, and Hank Jones. Charts arranged by Thad Jones. One of my favorites is the last cut on side 2, "Sho'Nuff Did," which is a tasty outside blues featuring the above named players plus Gregory Herbert and Cecil Bridgewater from Thad and Mel's big band. Freddie plays a solo that is one of the most well-constructed examples of a theme-and-variation motif I've ever heard.
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Dr. Stu · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject:

Absolutely agree, kehaulani! I'm a very big Freddie Hubbard fan - I have 30 of his albums- and I spend 99% of the time listening to his pre-1971 (or thereabouts) stuff. Never really liked most of his pop/jazz-funk/fusion stuff.

There are some notable exceptions, like the album "Blues for Miles" (1992)- which I like, & a couple others noted above (e.g. VSOP - 1977), but for the most part, I'm with you.

-Stu

crzytptman · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:24 am Post subject:

You guys are too much.THE MAN continued to grow and evolve until his health issues. The CTI was important work, and just as valid as any of the Blue Note stuff. The 70's was a cool time, why did he have to play the old way? Why not put some funk and groove in your bag, and even make some money?
I discovered Freddie in the 70's on a tv show - Club Date. I was knocked out and went out looking for his records the next day. Growing up in white suburbia made that tough! I got "In Concert" with Povo on one side and Gibralter on the other. My next one was "Liquid Love". Going to parties I would bring LL along with Chicago VII and BST Greatest hits. And I do have "Windjammer"! We were dancing to Freddie Hubbard! Anyway, that led to my discovering his earlier work, as well as a bunch of Jazz artists. Don't forget the CTI stable was full of great artists. And who could forget "Super Blue"? A GREAT album. And then, he pulled a lot of his history together with "Sweet Return".
Freddie Hubbard is my most important Jazz trumpet hero. I'm glad I got to hang with him some for a couple of years. It's unfortunate it was during his health issues, and his "frame of mind" was such that it precluded any serious music talk. But it was great to vibe off him and I learned a lot, like I did from ALL his recordings. Even "Times are Changing" . . .

Oh, I also have "Sing Me a Song of Songmy".
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PakWaan · Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:41 am Post subject:

crzytptman · Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:29 am Post subject:

Thank you - I'm glad we moved you!

rickster · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:48 am Post subject: Freddie

Freddie was amazing, but I do tend to listen to his work pre-1970, more than the later stuff, because for me I think his solos (primarily the Blue Note period) were more concise and thoughtful than a lot of his later solos , which tended to include a lot of effects, high note and otherwise. Take his Red Clay solo for example --- It just goes on for much too long, and while there are some good things about it, for me it's just not as meaty as his earlier work. And I am saying this as a HUGE Freddie Hubbard fan. I'm just saying that the rock era , in my own humble opinion, had a negative effect on Hubbard's solos.

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:06 am Post subject:

I own every recording Freddie made. Sure, there are some things later on in his career that show he was only 'in it for the money' and that he occasionally relied on patent lick or two. But.... there's some real magic during those years too- things he played technically that I never heard him do early in his career. If you limit yourself to only listening to his early work, you're really missing out on some great things.

I tend not to criticize him as some do because I'm sure he was playing things a certain way for a reason, if sometimes to 'make a buck.' (Plus he was one of the kindest jazz musicians I ever met). And not to sound mean, if people 'don't get' what he's doing in his later career and instead want other's opinions, they might be better off just following the recommendations of critic, Scott Yanow, who's actually more hit and miss in his reviews than Freddie ever was in his playing career. But if you're into discovering something new and don't mind being challenged, then I'd say check deeper into the later recordings. Just my opinion.
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kehaulani · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject:

DavesTrumpet · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:45 pm Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject:

Thanks, Dave. Well, I've been listening to some of the recommended selections - not finished yet by any means - but I'm starting to see what just got me disinterested in Freddie. For example, and this is not questioning anyone's taste, but the playing on the Psalm just doesn't match up for me.

I think one thing that keeps me from being committed to Freddie's post-1971 music are his use of sustained high notes and trills (tremolos, whatever you want to call them). I've got absolutely nothing against this genre of playing, but I get the feeling of such techniques as being overdone, especially when he is capable of making more substantial statements, while still keeping the excitement high.

And regarding the Psalm as being really funky, IMO Lee Morgan is funky and this just doesn't match up to Lee's funkiness.

Anyway, I'm starting to think that there is no real answer to my question - it's too subjective. But I am enjoying the excursion back into the music people posting have recommended and I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. It's good food for thought.
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JonathanM · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:34 pm Post subject:

I find it refreshing to see such decent dialogue between two individuals with differing tastes. As the wise man once said, 'Can we can disagree without being disagreeable?' On too many threads the disagreement seems to take precedence over the original thought - nice to see differing opinions voiced well within the thread thought, frankly.

Kudos to both of you.

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DavesTrumpet · Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:45 pm Post subject:

I do have to admit I went years without listening to Freddie because of an 'unlucky' purchase I made when in high school (late 70's/early 80's). Thinking I was buying some Freddie and it turned out all disco-y, etc. So all through college until when I saw him live in the late 80's, I didn't listen to him at all. I mean, he'd show up, Art Blakey, or on Trane's Africa Brass, but I intentionally avoided him. And there's always the natural avoidance of 'things commercial' when you're really into jazz. (I'm not as bad as I used to be about commercialism). It's funny though. About four or five years ago I forced myself to listen to one of those 'bad' albums and I happened to have the horn out. As soon as I tried to play ANYTHING he was doing, I had a greater appreciation for what he was doing!

Yeah, Lee is funky too!
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