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229 Philly Bell on a Xeno C?



 
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davidkoch
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: 229 Philly Bell on a Xeno C? Reply with quote

The title pretty much says it all. I'm wanting a different sound that projects and is a bit brighter for my C trumpet. The Philly 229 (French Bead) bell is the cheapest Bach offers.

Has anyone tried this setup? Is it too bright? I have a Larson pipe on my C which really opened up the sound and it's pretty dark right now.



Thanks.
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David,

You know I love messing with the integrity of trumpets as much as the next guy, but geez louise bro! Why have a larson leadpipe and tuning slide, a Bach bell, with a YAMAHA valve section? Haha, you might as well just put the larson pipes on a Philly to begin with.
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davidkoch
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon,

There's only one good reason I didn't just put a Larson pipe on a Philly... I only have a Xeno (Even calling it that in it's current state is iffy anymore.)

I'm looking for a very specific sound for C trumpet work, and my current horn doesn't really help me to produce it, so an equipment change might be in order.

My Bb is still perfect for anything I ask of it though. Maybe I should just get a Larson C instead...
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rockford
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:12 am    Post subject: Re: 229 Philly Bell on a Xeno C? Reply with quote

davidkoch wrote:
The title pretty much says it all. I'm wanting a different sound that projects and is a bit brighter for my C trumpet. The Philly 229 (French Bead) bell is the cheapest Bach offers.

Has anyone tried this setup? Is it too bright? I have a Larson pipe on my C which really opened up the sound and it's pretty dark right now.
You can go crazy and broke trying to experiment your way to the perfect C trumpet. If you're money conscious ( you used the word "cheapest") the best thing to do is buy a C trumpet you basically like. Nothing wrong with a little tweaking to adjust the fine points but I think you have to start with an instrument you're generally satisfied with. Vincent Bach, Reynold Schilke, Dave Monette, Cliff Blackburn, the engineers at Yamaha and a host of others have all devoted their professional lives experimenting with C trumpets. The odds of us coming up with something that's an improvement at home is pretty slim.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll sit with the 'too much time on your hands' camp.

Get a good C and learn to play it seems to be a better idea. Minute changes to tonal quality is more a conceptual change, rather than a equipment change.


cheers

Andy
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most important design of any instrument is the valve block. Ask a designer. Putting a Bach bell on a Yamaha will give you a Yamaha with a Bach bell. The sonic characteristics of the trumpet will come from the valve block. Great designers understand this and can tailor the intrinsic sound by careful, calculated adjustments. All you are doing is putting very different pieces on what was a good horn and is one of the reasons you see so many Frankenhorns for sale.
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Jon Kaplan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

davidkoch wrote:
Jon,

There's only one good reason I didn't just put a Larson pipe on a Philly... I only have a Xeno (Even calling it that in it's current state is iffy anymore.)

I'm looking for a very specific sound for C trumpet work, and my current horn doesn't really help me to produce it, so an equipment change might be in order.

My Bb is still perfect for anything I ask of it though. Maybe I should just get a Larson C instead...


Haha, absolutely. I was ridiculously impressed when I played Theo's horn last summer. I would argue Larson's Cs are some of the best out there, right up there with the Yamaha Artist Chicago, in my book.
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Adam West
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know someone who did it. The result was not as dramatic as one would hope. Better results were from putting a larson pipe directly on a philly. In the end, the Artisan was better all around as a stock horn if you're looking for the bach sound. Another option would be to find a really good Bach with a Malone MC1 or MC2, but those are quite expensive and hard to find.
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Hack001
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam West wrote:
I know someone who did it. The result was not as dramatic as one would hope. Better results were from putting a larson pipe directly on a philly. In the end, the Artisan was better all around as a stock horn if you're looking for the bach sound. Another option would be to find a really good Bach with a Malone MC1 or MC2, but those are quite expensive and hard to find.


+1
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh?

The valve block is not the most defining element in a trumpet.

That is just not true.

The valve block does mean something, but not as much as the bell and lead pipe. Even the main slide is more defining than the valve block.

Here it is in order:

1) bell
2) pipe
3) slide
4) fitting and abuttment of tubes and slide (you could put bracing location tied with this. Basically these are not design, but build issues)
5) valve block interior geometry. Mainly including how the pistons are balled out (which varies from horn to horn) and the extent to which there have to be compromises (bumps in the piston passageways), and port alignment
6) exterior valve block design. You need to pretty get drastic here to make much difference, and quite frankly, most of this can be done by changing mass like heavy caps, rubber rings,

All of that is predicated on the horn being tension free, with the bracing in
the optimum locations (not easy) and the horn being aligned etc.

I would think that most people would agree with most of that, even though on some horns that order can be different, that is pretty much the general stack of priorities.

You can get huge improvements when changing something like the valve block, but usually that is because each valve block is quite different from another because there are just so many build issues. No two pistons get balled out the same way, and there is a lot of variance on the radial alignment and vertical placement of all the holes. Especially on some brands of good trumpets.
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Lboretrumpets
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me know how that works out... I have an 8445 C that I'm going to put a Yam Chi C leadpipe and tuning slide on, along with an Artisan C bell. For all the 'if the maker puts it on, it must be the perfect part' guys... not true. One size does not fit all, and the only way to dial a horn in to how you want it is to experiment a bit.
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etntrpt
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should go next door and ask Ken if he thinks it is a good idea. I'm sure he'd be honest with you.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the importance of valve clusters, this is from an ongoing conversation at TrumpetMaster and is what Ivan Hunter, who makes his living making trumpets, said.

"Referring to the comment about silk purses and sow's ears, a trumpet will always retain its characteristics regardless of brace changing, lead pipe changing and bell changing. The essence of a trumpet, that part which gives it its particular character, is that often overlooked component, the valve cluster.

So much player concern goes into the mechanics of the valves (sluggishness, alignment etc), that we often overlook the fact that the greatest part of the mass of the trumpet is in this assembly. Countless demonstrations have been done concerning "swapping" valve clusters. When I presented players with 2 versions of my trumpet, they were unanimous about the difference in the blow that this change made. Yes you can modify around this to some extent, but you cannot, even if you wanted to, make an Olds play like a Bach, or a Bach play like a Monette. You can only make an Olds play like a better Olds, and a Bach like a better Bach".

I've also been told this by two very well-known custom trumpet makers that this is also the case.
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davidkoch
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

etntrpt wrote:
I think you should go next door and ask Ken if he thinks it is a good idea. I'm sure he'd be honest with you.



I'm not up at Interlochen anymore, but I think I will give him a call!
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camel
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I more or less 'designed' my own Frankenhorn.

Started with a Calicchio C trumpet, with a detachable bell. Then I had me a nice Bach 229 bell made, fit for the specific set up of this instrument.
Now I had a Calicchio C trumpet with to very usefull bells. The Calicchio bell ( which is extremely small, and for its size extremely heavy and thick) is excellent for smaller works and quintet jobs. The 229 Bell is very suitable for the bigger symphonies. This bell carries the sound very far, without losing core.

Then some months later, I got hold of a Pilzcuk leadpipe. Originally it was made for a Yamaha 745 (?) C trumpet, which has a smaller leadpipe than the standard bach. But its size was more or less the same as the original Calicchio leadpipe (which suffered from severe red rot). So I had my local tech made it fit to the tuning slide. It turned out to be a great combination.

before I did all that, I never could have hoped it would turn out to be so good. Both bells do really fit good with the valve cluster (Calicchio, great shape, still working great), and the leadpipe.
For a frankenhorn, it is a great instrument, and will never be for sale...
It's just too much fun playing it
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jvand678
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn't exactly uncharted territory. Didn't Jim Thompson play a Yamaha valve section, a Bach 229 bell and a Malone front end for a while? It's quite a mutt but if the leadpipe, mouthpiece and bell are balanced well it should work just fine.

However, this might fall under Ken's "calming the squirrels" category. FWIW, I would personally try to find a few more highs in the sound in myself before tweaking the horn... Maybe throw some Bilger and Martin in the playlist in place of some Hofs.

jv
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