Filling the bell bead with lead or solder?

lipshurt

Hello all TH'ers interested in design

So I recently wrecked a real good horn (Chinese project horn that I had worked on and dialed in to play very well) and I was able to rebuild the valve block tubes etc, but I swapped the Chinese bell (great bell, 5 1/2 inch)
With the biggest bell that schilke makes. Also one of my favorite bells.

Now the schilke bell came with no solder or lead in the bead. Bachs have the bead filled with solder. Mr filio at Bach told me that was integral to the Bach sound, and descried the effect as "more sound". In the 80's I met him and he did not seem to mind me calling him at Bach and picking his brain, about various modifications or horns that I was building back then. I was only about 21 or 22 at the time.

Well, at some point, I made a c trumpet and wanted to use this bell, because it was salvaged from my Bb, and did not have a 229 or other Bach C bell. He said go ahead and try it, but the intonation might be a crapshoot but no harm in trying. He also said that the bell bead needed to be filled or else it would "play like a schilke" which he was partially joking around. He was always cool with me and I never stayed on the phone for more than a couple minutes. He always said call him back and tell how things worked out, which I did.

Anyways, I filled the bead with solder, quite a bit actually, and I never really liked it as much on any other horns as I did on the original Bb it was on. So yesterday I removed all the solder, because it was not as good of a sound as the Chinese bell that was destroyed, and that one had no solder in the bead. So what the heck, I removed it, and now it is way better, and I swear the intonation is better. The sound is "wetter". With the solder it was a dryer sound. Also the attacks are more pingy. I am pretty surprised about this as I have always thought that the filling made things better as a rule.

I can also feel the balance difference I think.....maybe my imagination:)

Anybody care to add their two cents on this topic?

It's something I have not really seen discussed here very often
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www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
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halfgreek12 · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject:

I wonder what it's like out front compared to your perception. I always thought the lead was to help the projection.

Steve

shofarguy · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject:

There was one 1504 at the Kanstul showroom, some years back, that had a "dead bell" like that; no solder in the bead. When one would flick the edge of the bell, it sounded like hitting cardboard, instead of the ringing most bells give off. But the sound when played was really meaty and it did seem to respond a little quicker than some other horns. I don't know if it was "better" or just different.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

lipshurt · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject:

The sound of the "ring" did change a little and became more pure after removing the solder. It has a pretty nice long ring to it. Only the schlike beryllium bells had that super dead thunk sound.

Nothing has a ringing bell sound like this wrecked Chinese bell. It actually sound like a hand bell choir bell. Th schilke bell has an obvious overtone a 5th higher. But that overtone is much less obvious after removing the solder.

I wish I had a way to try it back and forth with and without the solder, but with only one bell..."

One of my favorite Bach bells is the 226 bell that was on my new york bach C. I put that bell on several horns over the years and always liked it. It has no solder or lead in the bead. It has a folded edge with no wire inside.

I always like vocabells too.

I actually like the Bach bells that are filled with lead too! I guess i like everything:)
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vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
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www.youtube.com/lipshurt

CRoberts8 · Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject:

My first thought when I read your post was the kranz on many rotary trumpets. Having extra weight at the bead is a lot like having a very small kranz on the bell...right?

Consider the difference between rotary trumpets "mit kranz" and without the kranz. More weight around the bell bead makes a difference. Though some horns have a dramatic kranz compared to a bit of solder, the solder should make a similar difference to that of the kranz. Even a french bead vs. a standard bead makes a difference in how a horn sounds and responds.

As I do not have extensive experience with rotaries "mit kranz" or "ohne kranz" I can not say with confidence specifically what that difference is other than that there is noticeable difference in similar horns with or without the extra weight on the bell.

Hope this is some good "food for thought"
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Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

Every now and then when I'm picking bells to fit my horns, one will feel pretty good before I clean it up and solder the bead. I say every now and then because the ratio is about one out of one hundred. If the bell I have picked from as many as fifty, the sound solidifies after the bead is soldered. The variables in bells still amazes me and having the luxury of picking from a lot is a distinct advantage in my mind. Soldering the bead is the best way to go if you only have one bell to work with in my opinion.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns, available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or in Europe at Brass Studio Prague, call 224 816 861.

lipshurt · Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:05 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the info tony!

So I am wondering if right now my bead has about the same amount of solder in it that might be normal. I can get my fingernail under the edge a little in some spots. I'm thinking maybe I just had way too much solder in there. The first time I filled it I really wanted to be extreme so I melted a lot and rolled it around until it was pretty even. Then maybe several years later I took a lot of it out but it was still more than normal.

Maybe mine right now still acts like a soldered bead even though I blew the lot solder out with air, there is some in there still.

So I guess I'm asking, how much solder is usually laid in there?

Old conns seem to have a lot in that thick bead.

Thanks again Tony
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Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
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www.youtube.com/lipshurt

AustrianTrumpet · New Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 5

great to read about - very interessting!!

ford850 · Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:44 pm Post subject:

I don't have two cents to add but can pass on what I was told by John Duda who said that a dead bell (or maybe just his) had better projection. I have two dead bells he made, a Calicciho #3 and a Benge #6. I don't have "regular" bells to compare them with but am curious to see how they play when I find bodies for them.
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Shires CVLA
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Getzen Renaissance 20S
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Maarten van Weverwijk · Heavyweight Member Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 3377

This old thread on bell "ring" might add something to the discussion.
It also has a couple of interesting links posted by Larry Woods:
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81710

MvW.

Tony Scodwell · Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Oct 2005 Posts: 1961

My best analogy is tapping a bell to hear it ring is the same as kicking the tires on a car in a showroom. Test drive both for an accurate evaluation.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only at Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or in Europe at Brass Studio Prague, call 224 816 861.