Orchestral Auditions

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

OOOerrr!! ---it looks different over here!!

---it looks SO clean!!!

WOW!!! there's a load of pictures of guys playing the Trumpet hanging on the walls here that I'm SURE never played for Duke Ellington!!!

...What? ...oh...the orchetsral side?

..ok! I'll go back over to the ''dark side''

before I go though!....how do you guys cope with the fact that in an audition for a Top Orchestral Tpt. post, you are at the mercy of the foibles of the Audtion panel, and is it sometimes a forgone conclusion anyhow?

This is not a trick question / or indeed a loaded one! --genuinely curious!!!

Roddy o-iii<O

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[ This Message was edited by: Roddyo-iii<O on 2002-02-06 13:05 ]

walter · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2002 7:16 am Post subject:

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:03 ]

PBTpt · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2002 8:34 am Post subject:

Roddy,
Well there's no use complaining about the audition process because it's never going to change, and there really isn't a better way to do things.
As far as auditions where people think the outcome has already been decided..well this does happen but I've been to plenty of auditions where everyone was saying "don't go because so and so will just get the job" ...most of the time "so and so" does not win! Or "so and so" gets the job because they were the best player that day. There is no such thing as a sure bet in this field and with the quality of players today anyone has a shot at any audition.
It really is a fair process most of the time and people should never be discouraged from taking a certain audition because they think someone else is going to win.

big brian · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 440

stickyvalves · Regular Member Joined: 05 Feb 2002 Posts: 27

gb1,
First of all I'm not going to touch the "large midwest orchestra" situation with a ten foot pole because you never know who reads these boards.
What I will say is that it's really unfair to say that certain people were not tenured and are doing "shaky" jobs when you don't know all the facts of the situation. Have you ever been through a tenure process in a large orchestra? It's a complicated process and many factors unrelated to playing come in.
From what I can tell the point of these boards is to offer advice to fellow trumpeters..Spreading rumors and giving opinions about someone in a high pressure situation is uncalled for.
Everyone knows the orchestra you're talking about and you could of made your point without mentioning it. Maybe getting tenure would be easier if we trumpet players were a little more supportive of each other!

trumpetherald · Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2002 1:09 pm Post subject:

Please let's restrain talk on this board about difficulties our colleagues may be experiencing. Even if what you are saying is true, don't make their situation more difficult or humiliating by spreading it around.

Editor

PS: Regarding who reads these boards, I would say: 'exercise discretion at all times!' I am continually amazed by the number of musicians who stop by at least now and then. Traffic normally increases by 150% each month.

[ This Message was edited by: trumpetherald on 2002-02-06 19:35 ]

mstrpt · Veteran Member Joined: 07 Dec 2001 Posts: 137

I couldn't agree more that we need to stay away from rumor and gossip....

Concerning auditions: If you want the job go and play. Any orchestra worth their weight will want the best player. I wish I had a dime for every time somebody told me an audition was fixed or set-up in advance and not to bother....I've never seen this so called shoe-in win the job.... Yes the process has its' flaws but more and more orchestras are having candidates play in the section as well as on their own, and/or have them come and play a week before a decision is made.

P.S. You're right...you never know who will read these comments.....

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

.....very interesting fellas!

-- with the auditions one presumes that sometimes the audition material is fixed by the board, and sometimes left to personal choice eh?

..are there faves which everybody plays a zillion times?

Hope my questions are'nt TOO stupid / misleading / or troublesome.

Thanks for the info.

Roddy o-iii<O
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

_Don Herman · Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2002 11:29 am Post subject:

Roddy et. al. -- If you can find it (I lost the URL, darn computer crashes!) there's an article (several, actually) by Douglas Yao (I think) regarding orchestral auditions that's well worth the read. (I have a hard copy, which doesn't have the URL on it... Hopefully somebody'll recall it from TPIN, or find it on the ITG site or something). He's a trombone player, but has an excellent perspective and great advice to offer to anybody regarding auditions -- taped and live portions.

HTH - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Yes I've seen that one Mr.H, it does give (I should imagine) very valuable advice to the Orch.Auditioner, however it does'nt address/mention (nor would I expect it to) my main points upstairs

Roddy o-iii<O
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Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

_Don Herman · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2002 7:27 am Post subject:

OK Roddy, sorry for not being direct; I thought the others did OK and figured people thinking of auditionng should really have a peek at that article.

Roddy asks: "...how do you guys cope with the fact that in an audition for a Top Orchestral Tpt. post, you are at the mercy of the foibles of the Audtion panel, and is it sometimes a forgone conclusion anyhow?"

I'll answer your question, bearing in mind I've only had two auditions in the last few years and both were fairly benign, as follows:

I practice long and hard, and get help from my teacher on technique and sound (he's Principal of the Colorado Springs Symphony) -- and from anybody else I can think of, including listening to the music in context.

I play my best.

...and, do exactly what they ask, whether it's playing some scale I learned twenty years ago (alright, but have probably forgotten) or stopping right before my favorite part of the excerpt.

Ain't nuthin' I can do about the panel's quirks or any preconceptions. The most I can do is to impress them enough to consider me for the post no matter what. Better to try and fail, etc. Even if I have no chance, I can leave them with a favorable impression of my playing and spirit.

Seems simple and cliche, but don't know what else to do but go for it and enjoy the experience (between the terror, of course!)

As for your questions re. material, I've usually seen a list of required excerpts plus a solo choice. The latter is sometimes entirely up to the player, somtimes a specific piece and/or section is specified, and sometimes a choice of two or three solos is provided for the auditioner to choose.

My teacher gave me a list of "typical" excerpts, but the lists found via the ITG site links are about the most complete I've seen. I have a list (somewhere) which I can provide if you wish, but you'd really be better off getting the ITG list or one from a "real" player.

Best wishes - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-02-08 10:32 ]

bobwhite · Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2002 7:05 pm Post subject:

I've done some auditioning, and been somewhat successful a few times. Still, I'm convinced that learning to audition is something quite different from learning to play in an orchestra.

While it's too bad that people have brought up ugly gossip above, the idea that maybe something needs to be rethought in the audition process does seem to have some validity.

I think the simple idea of offering the finalists, or a few of them, a "trial" for a couple of weeks is a good idea. This often happens, but more often orchestras seem to say "we're not taking anyone this time" - a very frustrating situation to be in!

I would also add that it seems that learning to be someone who is really pleasant to work with is a much-needed skill that some players these days (at least ones my age) sometimes overlook. Learning to defer to others, even if you don't agree with them sometimes, and doing so without resentment is so important in any job and in life, I think. Everyone reacts differently to pressure, and avoiding the common reaction of defensiveness has great effects.

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Thanks Mr.H + Mr.W.....really informative!

sometimes even with careful wording it is'nt easy to get your meaning of the question across...but you answered some curiosities nicely there!....to digress for a minute....
quite a few guys have emailed me off list with with their personal experiences on the question....which threw up some other questioins (as always!)

....here's something from me off subject I suppose but I thought you might have a laugh/cry over...

Touring ballet companies are increasingly using canned music...I worked on a tour once with the Vienna Festival Ballet Company and it was hilarious to see week by week the musicians being felled like trees with job cuts....we ended up playing the Nutcracker with about 10 guys...we were all asked to double up on parts...I had to double oboe parts/and something else I can't remember now (as well as Tpt.parts)...it was SO funny in the end we could'nt stop laughing long enough to play, so eventually I quit. The most funny and one of the more unusual events in my musical life!!

Thanks for writing all! ---shall I go back now to the dark side? --it smells a whole lot better over here!!!

Yours Roddy o-iii<O

http://www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC
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Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

doubletop · Regular Member Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 23

I think there are many people who apply for a job not expecting to get anywhere.

Most players will not be offered a position on their first attempt. That is not why they go. They want the panel to hear them! Hear there name. You never know when the extra list is depleted and that young up and comer we heard last week may be given a chance. That;s gonna look good on his CV isnt it?

Also - surely experience of an audition is a key thing. You do not want to be doing your first audition when you stand a chance. Nerves might shoot you to pieces.

Do an audition there is no chance of you being offered the job for. You will not be nervous. And you never know... you may pull something unbelieveable out of the bag and be offered extra work or even a trial.

Re: Slaging players off.

Anyone with the gall to play the trumpet for a living has got to learn how to deal with pressure AND CRITICISM. Professional players HAVE learnt to deal with it or they would lose their bottle everynight and not be in a job for long. Believe me, the big trumpet names are not the slightest bit interested in what maybe talked about in an internet forum. Please. They have better things to worry about. ie. tonights concert which they have to nail if last nights went a bit awry.

See you soon (no doubt with some more controversial opinions).

rudas1 · Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2002 10:09 am Post subject:

Doubletop,

I disagree, you NEVER no who might be browsing this forum. Yes, If I were principal trumpet of a major orchestra right now, I probably would'nt be on this site as much, but I might check in from time to time. Laurie Frink is an active member on the Caruso forum, and I would definitely consider her a big name in here field...just to make my point.

Sorry to belabor this, but I dont think we should be making assumptions of any kind regarding both of the aforementioned topics.

My opinion-no offense intended-Rudas

doubletop · Regular Member Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 23

Er, yeah.

Not exactly sure what you disagree with. If you believe we should not slag players off in case they read the boards then I disagree.

As I say, a professional person in any field must accept that their work must be up to a particular standard. Musicians in particular put themselves up for judgement every time they perform. It comes with the job.

If a player has performed badly then they know it, the entire orchestra knows it, as well as the board of directors, the conductor, possibly the prinicipal condutor. The audience and critics know it too.

Some ones opinion in one of these boards? So what? A discreet word from the chairman of the board (or even a letter) means they should start worrying - not my opinion does not.

Of course, more likely they realise their work was not up to scratch and invariably it is the next night.

The music business is very competitive as I am sure you realise. If any musician cannot take or is offended by criticism, then they would have left the profession a long time ago.

I am interested to hear why you may disagree.

6pk · Posted: Mon Apr 22, 2002 4:50 pm Post subject:

with regards to jobs being "fixed up" etc..
The orchestra wants a good player and they may well have someone in mind but there's nothing you can do about it.. just play as nicely as you can without letting ego and nerves take over and when the times right you'll find yourselves on a nice chair..
I know people who after they've won a job hve been contacted and informed that it was fixed for someone else to get it and this other person had got it. Naturally they were corrected and pleasently surprised that the music world is slightly less corrupt than we may think it is.
Also there are still a few professional players left that are enthusiastic and enough of an "anorak" to write on chatrooms like these so i think its good to be diplomatic. anyway enjoy!

stickyvalves · Regular Member Joined: 05 Feb 2002 Posts: 27

...I agree with most of the above replies. As far as what Mr. DoubleTop had to say.... go back and look at who has replied to this topic...You'll be surprised to find the Principal trumpet of the Cleveland Orchestra has weighed in on the subject. So I guess you're wrong there are some rather "heavyweight" trumpet players reading all this stuff!

doubletop · Regular Member Joined: 15 Dec 2001 Posts: 23

Hey. Have I been miss quoted again?

Sticky valves - I never suggested that 'heavyweight' trumpet players do not read these forums'. Not in this thread anyway!

My point is, that this does not mean we should not slag them off in case they read it. What's wrong with a bit of healthy criticism. It comes with the job. You wanna play prinicpal trumpet - you get used to it!

Oh, and yeah. I have never criticised any player on the Trumpet Herald.

Having said that - my mate Paul's properly s**t.

Thanks.

DT

[ This Message was edited by: doubletop on 2002-04-25 16:35 ]

Craig_nyi · Regular Member Joined: 24 Apr 2002 Posts: 12

I thought Michaels Sachs was Principle trumpet of the Cleveland Orchestra??? I don't see his name here anywhere.

Craig