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Footage of Blessing Hand Hammering Bells Video



 
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Footage of Blessing Hand Hammering Bells Video Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHDW8M0cuh8&feature=related


Found it by accident looking for video of 1580 Vintage Raw Brass model. I found it kinda cool.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks like a company that should be supported!
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I'll get crucified for this but the difference in the sound this makes is nearly zero.

Works well to get people to pay lots of money, though.

Tom
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Don Lee
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VetPsychWars wrote:
I know I'll get crucified for this but the difference in the sound this makes is nearly zero.

Works well to get people to pay lots of money, though.

Tom


I believe that Monette uses two piece bells? So what is your proof?
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Capt.!

It is nice to watch a dedicated craftsman at work. It is interesting that it does not look like he is wearing any ear protection...I wonder how he feels at the end of his shift!

Hand-hammering allows one to modify and control bell thickness at certain areas of the bell which does effect how a horn plays. Years ago, Doc Severinsen used to have Zig Kanstul hand-hammer special bells for his personal Bel Canto horns. These horns played much better than the standard Bel Canto models. As Doc would say, "They really sing, man".
Every horn that received this treatment during construction was something very special...I know, as I played most of these horns personally. The horn that I miss the most is the Bel Canto that Doc used to record his album "Trumpet Spectacular". This horn had one of Zig's special bells on it...a to die for horn.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would anyone civilized crucify you????LOL I think all methods of bell construction have their weak points and strong points.I do not have much experience with seamless bells but I would bet dollars for doughnuts that with the right heat treat, wall thickness's and material it would be fine for a good many things. I am even a fan of two piece bells over hand hammered ones.

Like a lot of things I think you need to get te rest of the trumpet right before the little things like method of bell construction and materials matter. Liekwise I think it is at the extremes that most pronounced differences show up not in the mid range at normal playing volumes. So whisper quite and peeling paint and drastically bellow or above the staff.

With regard to the one piece seamless bells Tony's balanced models use them, one model of Conn Vintage One use's one, Lawler(sp) has a model with one and so on. I have not played anything I liked with one but that does not rule the method out. I intend at some point to try and crack that nut. LOL I have not played any of the above models with seamless bells. I am not found of Getzen's student models with them that is for sure!!!

It is though very interesting to watch all the same. I would also say that Blessing ML-1 had one real weakness even when compared against other light weight horns. It's bell was not so hot.

I would not be willing to say it makes no difference that is like saying hot forging a knife blade compared to machine blanking one from sheet stock makes not difference. Anyone that has made a knife both ways and used them hard can tell you their is a very real difference. I would instead say that fantastic bells can be found made in a variety of methods with a variety of hand working and spinning. Not all "hand hammered bells" are so hot so their is plenty of room to wiggle. I do not have enough experience to say for sure who is right only that I prefr two piece bells then one piece hand hammered then seamless and electroformed. Perception is a tricky beast and you can never find two identical bells made in all three methods for apples to apples comparison.
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Drapp wrote:
Thanks Capt.!

It is nice to watch a dedicated craftsman at work. It is interesting that it does not look like he is wearing any ear protection...I wonder how he feels at the end of his shift!

Hand-hammering allows one to modify and control bell thickness at certain areas of the bell which does effect how a horn plays. Years ago, Doc Severinsen used to have Zig Kanstul hand-hammer special bells for his personal Bel Canto horns. These horns played much better than the standard Bel Canto models. As Doc would say, "They really sing, man".
Every horn that received this treatment during construction was something very special...I know, as I played most of these horns personally. The horn that I miss the most is the Bel Canto that Doc used to record his album "Trumpet Spectacular". This horn had one of Zig's special bells on it...a to die for horn.


Nice clip...I wonder if the guy needs to hear the ring as he shapes the bell to get the best out of the metal.

How good was the Bel Canto trumpet? The ones not specifically made for Doc? Take off of a 1930's Bach wasn't it?

After the clip this link came up... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfiueSSyQPI&feature=related reminded me it is all about the music.

Walter
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billybobb
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Drapp wrote:
Thanks Capt.!

It is nice to watch a dedicated craftsman at work. It is interesting that it does not look like he is wearing any ear protection...I wonder how he feels at the end of his shift!

Hand-hammering allows one to modify and control bell thickness at certain areas of the bell which does effect how a horn plays. Years ago, Doc Severinsen used to have Zig Kanstul hand-hammer special bells for his personal Bel Canto horns. These horns played much better than the standard Bel Canto models. As Doc would say, "They really sing, man".
Every horn that received this treatment during construction was something very special...I know, as I played most of these horns personally. The horn that I miss the most is the Bel Canto that Doc used to record his album "Trumpet Spectacular". This horn had one of Zig's special bells on it...a to die for horn.


Good info. So other than the hand hammering, what EXACTLY made those bells so special and can they be ordered today?
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Matthew Anklan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've met this guy several times, VERY nice guy! This video was taken in the old Blessing factory, the new one is much larger and very state of the art. In the new factory they are building the Blessing horns, Sonare trumpets and the new Warburton trumpets. Thanks for posting this video!
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we're already a bit OT with the Bel Canto stuff: wasn't it John Duda who made those bells (on behalf of Kanstul, but Duda's handiwork)? There's a man who can really make a bell that sings. For that matter, Dick Akright (who built the Bel Cantos) once mentioned that John was the person who taught him how to build valves.
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the time when it was being manufactured, the Bel Canto was perhaps the very best crafted production trumpet available. Some would have argued the same for the Smith-Watkins then, but I played on both and liked the Bel Canto better. As Dick and Doc would say the horn would "sing." The horn was very NY Bach like, but Doc loved the French Besson and you can see some influence from this design as well. The difference was in the valves, annealing and modification of the bell thickness and flare, and a lot of hand work on the leadpipe. I don't know if John or Zig actually did the bell hand workmanship, I only know that Dick talked with Zig about Doc's bells and that is where they came from. I do know that they made a real difference in how the horn responded when pushed...it would "sing!". I was going to have Kanstul put Doc's bell on my Bel Canto but it was just easier for me to play on one of Doc's horns at the time and of course, I had a very special love for the horn that he used on "Trumpet Spectacular" so I played this horn a lot. Doc's actual bell specifications are probably only known to Zig and maybe John, I"m not certain that Doc even knows for sure. One must remember that his bells were matched to his horn, his mouthpiece, his leadpipe and his abilities...what really made the horn "sing" was Doc. I would say that the "Doc" Bel Canto was perhaps a bit darker in tone, would produce more of a sizzle and ring above the staff, and had a balanced resistance as far up as you could go. Doc liked a Bach 37 bell (he and I would argue about this because I am a 43 fan) but the Bel Canto seemed much broader and yet had a better core than the 37, so this was part of Zig's magic. You could color the sound very well with this bell....ahhh, it was just a wonderful mix of a classic (legit) sound with a big band sizzle all in one horn...what can I say?
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david mickley
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a BelCanto and it was a great horn, the only reason I got rid of it was because it had very finicky valves. I know now that there are fixes for this problem and sometimes wish I had that horn back. When playing my BelCanto I had to tone it down a bit because it was very easy to over power the whole section with that horn. If it called for mf I had to play mp. I now own a Blessing 1580 in raw brass and that horn took me 3-4 weeks to get used to. When I first bought it I thought that I had made a big mistake, it just didn't work for me but now it is my favorite horn. I like it better then even my cherished Chicago Benge ML. Really can't think of any horn right now that I would trade my Blessing for that retails $2,500 or less.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the seamless bells I am sure you can do a lot with heat treating and with the spining steps depending on how it is done. SInce usualy the goal of seamless bells is to be as cheap on human labor and energy as can e I am guessing not a lot has been done with them. WHat I mean is they has not been enough work to see how much difference their is between two identical other wise bells and what it takes to make the bell perform. I am sure small shops and builders have played around but not the big boys. The method of bell construction has been a huge marketing boon for OEM. Look at how Getzen markets their stuff.... Their pro stuff has to have one piece bells then two piece bells are intermediate and their seamless bells are student level. I never say the bell manufacturing method as a huge selling point. TO me a horn either plays and sounds fantastic or it is does not. Same things goes for monel I never say it as a selling point I preferred nickel silver until I got my ands on some Jupiter Stainless steel pistons to replace some sluggish monel Jupiter pistons.

I think Monel and one piece hand hammered bells are more about marketing then real performance advantage. I think a two piece bells are a better way to go myself. Being trained in Business/Marketing and in Aviation Technology Materials Sciences / Applied Science then going to work in the Auto Industry right after college I do not look at a trumpet and the marketing like most do. I look at it with a Jaded and Cynical approach and attempt to discern if their is any useful info or just marketing talk in most everything.

Matel does behave differently when worked and the method and amount of working can make a huge difference. The real question is how much working is needed and what steps in the process are the most important???? Is it the hammering or the spinning? One surely has a greater inpact then the other. Since I like two piece bells and two piece bells only the stem needs to be hammered much. Compared to a hand hammered bell their need not be any hammering to a two piece bell. You can in fact go from a flat piece of metal to a nicely spun bell with no hammering at all. The spinning process is how a bell flair for a two piece bell is made. You need a mandrel shaped like the flair, a piece of metal, some way to spin it need not be a full blown lathe and a bar to force the material against the mandrel. Then you cut the inside opening out and it needs to be brazed to the stem...Then sanded while spinning and so on.... Since we need to anneal with both methods and spinning is involved in both methods I am inclined to think that the annealing and spinning is the most important function that the hammering is secondarily.

We have too many fantastic Monettes,Olds, Bessons,Martins and on and on to think for one minute that a bell needs to be one piece hand hammered to sound fantastic and be of pro-quality.

So I think their is plenty of room for all of the methiods and that more work needs to be done before we rule out the seamless bells all together. I do not know how Getzen would know how to label their horns for market segment or price point if not for the no-brainer bell construction differences.....LOL They would have to find another more meaningful way of grading their horns. I know heaven forbid right????LOL
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will also say this. All that hand hammering and slamming the bell on the mandrell is a good workout. I am sure that guy has better then average strength and anaerobic and aerobic endurance. When I worked with my hands prior to college I always had very strong, powerful hands and lots fo endurance. Now not so much. The origanal studie that Dr. Cooper used to forumlate his "aerobic" work which by the way we latter found out was not remotely correct or accurate and was heavily biased was based on the work of Long Shoremen(sp). Now the LongShormen(sp) didnot do aerobic work. They did anaerobic work unloading ships and such on the docks/peer and it was more like what a mover today working for a moving company would do. Not at all slow continuous cardio like Dr. Cooper recommended even though that is what he used as his sources cited work. My point is fact seldom matches results or recommendations. This is especially true when few ever read the work cited studies or research and such. People wanting to make a name for themselves or trying to differentiate their product will often fudge the facts to make their material, work or product stand out and look better.

I have never seen any university research demonstrating the superior nature of a one piece hand hammered bell over a two piece bell for instance. Never seen any research showing that Monel greatly outperformed nickel silver pistons in function, feel, friction, wear and tear. No one in AMerica wants to mention the "SS" word combo of stainless steel pistons because then they would have to admit that cheap Chinese trumpet have better materials in use even if they are not built as well.
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