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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Bump.
chuck in ny wrote: | selling horns is a tough business. flip is selling stuff that should go for a good bit more, and instead of people beating a path to the door, he gets put down for running a marketing scheme.
my policy was to pay him for the trumpet and flugel before he had a chance to change his mind.
i'd like to know how many people on the planet are capable of designing a better playing brass instrument, and also once you get that knowledge, how much more your goods are worth over a quality factory horn.
it's a hard business and who knows maybe it should be that way. funny to see how things go down and how this lame argument on rebadged kanstuls persists. the only valid argument would be playing a wild thing, and then it not being to your liking. ..chuck |
'Nuff said. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Bill,
Within the constraints Flip has just stated, I can tell you that my 1025 was ultimately set up as close to Flip's Wild Thing flugelhorn as possible. The WT is more consistent through the scale in terms of timbre and resistance. It is easier to access the upper range, especially in an ascending scale, because the WT responds in a more linear fashion.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Blackwell wrote: |
Stuff, with a signature including:
Kanstul Trumpet 1001-1R - Copper (small jazz combo)
Kanstul Trumpet 1601-2 (big band)
Kanstul Trumpet 1504-1
Kanstul Flugelhorn 1025 - Copper
Kanstul Cornet 1530 - Copper
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Just a thought, here. Looking at all the Kanstul horns in Bill's signature and especially a cornet and flugelhorn proposed as being the same as Wild Things, and his location given as Southern California (OK, that takes in a lot of real estate, some of it even habitable): why not load up the car with your arsenal and go see Flip in Oceanside? Then you, too, could chime in on the superiority of his horns. If I can make the trek from Northern California, it's hard to see why someone from Flip's end of the state should have to ask about his horns here. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls.... |
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1019 Location: Southern CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Flip Oakes wrote: | It may appear that way, but it's not...... IT IS NOT THE SAME HORN......
Sorry, but I don't feel I need to tell everyone how to design, or what my horn is, beyond my descriptions above. |
Just to be clear there was no hostile intent from me whatsoever. You have my sincere apologies if any offences were taken.
It is, however, cryptic responses like this that have given me the impression I posted earlier in this thread. You did say, "I wished people would just ask me..."
ChopsGone wrote: | Bill Blackwell wrote: |
Stuff, with a signature including:
Kanstul Trumpet 1001-1R - Copper (small jazz combo)
Kanstul Trumpet 1601-2 (big band)
Kanstul Trumpet 1504-1
Kanstul Flugelhorn 1025 - Copper
Kanstul Cornet 1530 - Copper
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... why not load up the car with your arsenal and go see Flip in Oceanside? Then you, too, could chime in on the superiority of his horns. ... |
Fair enough, but I have to play on a horn for at least a month (time for the 'honeymoon' to wear off) before I know for sure it will work for me. ~30 minutes in a practice room simply doesn't do it (not for me).
And since the WT line is made by Kanstul at the Kanstul factory and largely based off of Kanstul instruments (having owned several, I am very familiar with them), knowing and understanding the technical differences should help me decide if a particular WT might be worth a purchase. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper
The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think you're ok here:
Quote: | the WT line is made by Kanstul at the Kanstul factory |
but off the mark here:
Quote: | and largely based off of Kanstul instruments |
Does that help? Yes, they are made by Kanstul using generic Kanstul parts. The differences are proprietary information. As Flip told you: different bell, different leadpipe, yada yada yada . . . you can look it up. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Blackwell wrote: | Fair enough, but I have to play on a horn for at least a month (time for the 'honeymoon' to wear off) before I know for sure it will work for me. ~30 minutes in a practice room simply doesn't do it (not for me). |
Bill Blackwell wrote: | ...knowing and understanding the technical differences should help me decide if a particular WT might be worth a purchase. |
I know it's not exactly the same, but aren't these two a bit contradictory?
- I have to play the horn a bunch in order to know if it will work...
... in other words, a real trial that puts it through it's paces.
- The technical difference (specs on paper) are enough to decide if I'll buy it?
... but numbers on paper (including numbers that Schilke said are meaningless) are enough to know if it's worth buying.
Huh. I agree with the first part, but I think it'd be worth playing a horn to see if it's worth buying. A bit of playing in the trial room is better than numbers on paper (or a screen) any day of the week by me.
There's some horns that I think I'd like - like a Bach 72, but don't work that well for me. On paper, I don't really care for the 43. In reality, I seem to respond to that bell best... of the Bach stuff, anyway. That's just an example. There's plenty more instances like that. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Last edited by Crazy Finn on Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Accordion Ron Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 584 Location: Haverhill, Ma
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Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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Not being a pro player, and not being all the good. I am impressed with my Wild Thing, because I just got out my Herbert L Clarke book and played
"From The Shores Of The Mighty Pacific" without a flub. Must be the horn, because I've never played it before without several "flub's" Ta Taaaa! |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Accordion Ron wrote: | Not being a pro player, and not being all the good. I am impressed with my Wild Thing, because I just got out my Herbert L Clarke book and played
"From The Shores Of The Mighty Pacific" without a flub. Must be the horn, because I've never played it before without several "flub's" Ta Taaaa! |
So, do you find the WT has tight slots, that the notes really lock in (in tune, of course)? That's what I like in a cornet used for fairly technical music. My large bore Bach 184G is that way, and now that I got the valves aligned and trash-canned the heavy caps, I'm very satisfied with it. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Accordion Ron Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 584 Location: Haverhill, Ma
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dale,
The notes seem closer together. I find myself playing a G instead of an E. The intonation is very good, as was the Bach 184. It just seems easier to play. I have made a few mistakes by starting at the wrong pitch. Seems strange, but I'll get use to it. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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Easier to play is a good thing! _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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tom turner Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 6648 Location: USA
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
I don't know his name here on the TH site, and he's mainly lurked instead of posting for years here and at the TM site.
I won't mention his name either without his permission but he's the identical twin brother of a long-time trombonist with the Georgia Big Band. He also loves vintage trumpets and plays an extremely nice Model Lightweight 400 from a famous old company ("Beuscher") . . . made in 1950. Heck, I'll bet I just screwed up the spelling. Sorry. Any hoo . . .
He's down from Virginia this week doing some work at the AF base and Warner Robins and we invited him to sit in on one of our rehearsals Monday night.
I SAY ALL THAT LEAD IN TO PREFACE THIS . . .
During a break I mentioned to him that "in the trumpet section tonight we have an entire Flip Oakes trumpet line up . . . TWO Wild Things and a Celebration, something you've probably never heard before." I added, "Would you like to play 'em and see what they are all about."
Naturally, he did, and he remarked about the very even steps between the notes from top to bottom . . . the even scale. He mentioned how easy they were to play and he seemed to really like 'em a lot. We all let him try our horns. It's nice seeing the reaction from seasoned players when they play 'em!
THEN I let him try the WT short cornet. He's read about all these horns in my posts here through the many years, and he got to see what a magic horn the cornet is too!
Yea, they are something else, and starting with me in early 2001, each of us in the section has gotten to experience playing Flip's horns . . . and each person has ended up buying a horn from Flip they hadn't planned on buying BEFORE experiencing how wonderful they play and sound!
I might also add, all are fine players too, educated musicians with years of experience and performance . . . and they could truly appreciate the difference enough that they simply HAD to have one of their own.
Lots of $$$$ for Flip's horns? That's one way to look at it I guess, but I look at it another way . . . they don't cost much more than horns that sometimes leave a lot to be desired! I've played a lot of horns that weren't really close but cost nearly the same in my time, and cherish the differences.
EVERYONE loves the sound and ease of play of my short cornet, but he also mentioned how easy all Flip's horns are to play and respond instantly, even at a very faint whisper. Yep . . . the real deal.
T. _________________ Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet |
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qcm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Apr 2007 Posts: 1281 Location: Massachusetts
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Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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tom turner wrote: | EVERYONE loves the sound and ease of play of my short cornet, but he also mentioned how easy all Flip's horns are to play and respond instantly, even at a very faint whisper. Yep . . . the real deal.
T. |
I love the Wild Thing trumpets, they are magnificent instruments.
But Flip's Wild Thing short model cornet? Man, that is a special, special horn.
I absolutely love that axe.
-Dave _________________ Dave Edwards
Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc. |
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Accordion Ron Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 584 Location: Haverhill, Ma
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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GEE! I started this thing. Do I get a commission when Flip's sales go up? haha |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Accordion Ron wrote: | GEE! I started this thing. Do I get a commission when Flip's sales go up? haha |
I bet you can get twice what he pays me.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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billybobb Veteran Member
Joined: 10 Jun 2010 Posts: 264
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Blackwell wrote: | [. ... |
And since the WT line is made by Kanstul at the Kanstul factory and largely based off of Kanstul instruments (having owned several, I am very familiar with them), knowing and understanding the technical differences should help me decide if a particular WT might be worth a purchase.[/quote]
Well if that's the case, just ask Kanstul at the factory what the differences are that you feel are cryptic from Flip. No acclimation period will be needed then. |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:59 am Post subject: |
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The wild thing bell is unlike any other trumpet bell I have seen. Closest is my Besson cornet bell, but the wild thing is wider. Not like any Kanstul trumpet as far as I can see. |
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Bob Stevenson Heavyweight Member
Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 1139 Location: Essex, England
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Actually, form a British perspective the 'WT' models, both trumpet and 'cornet' are flugle horns,...the have the same sound charcteristics and enharmonics found in the flugles we use in brass bands, the 'cornet' more than the trumpets......
....presumably this is a function of fitting a straight bore mouthpipe and wider throat bell like a flugle horn. |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7003 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Bob Stevenson wrote: | Actually, form a British perspective the 'WT' models, both trumpet and 'cornet' are flugle horns,...the have the same sound charcteristics and enharmonics found in the flugles we use in brass bands, the 'cornet' more than the trumpets......
....presumably this is a function of fitting a straight bore mouthpipe and wider throat bell like a flugle horn. |
Bob,
They aren't as wide as flugelhorn I've seen, but definitely wider than other Bb trumpets. Flip calls the design a hybrid, and it is. As far as sounding like a British band flugelhorn, I imagine that's possible if the flugelhorn uses a shallow mouthpiece while the WT has a very deep one, but it is not necessarily so. Any video of Arturo Sandoval using the horn, or audio tracks of Dan MacMillion (as heard on Flip's website) underscore the horn's versatility.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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Bill Blackwell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Posts: 1019 Location: Southern CA
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:46 am Post subject: |
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billybobb wrote: | Bill Blackwell wrote: | . ... And since the WT line is made by Kanstul at the Kanstul factory and largely based off of Kanstul instruments (having owned several, I am very familiar with them), knowing and understanding the technical differences should help me decide if a particular WT might be worth a purchase. |
Well if that's the case, just ask Kanstul at the factory what the differences are that you feel are cryptic from Flip. No acclimation period will be needed then. |
Been there, done that. The good folks at Kanstul are there to sell Kanstuls - and cannot and/or will not discuss the accolades of other brand names produced there under someone else’s specs.
Flip Oakes has enough respect (and history with Kanstul) and regard in the music industry to earn my trust – even if he exercises his right not to discuss the intricacies of his product. He says the WT instruments are not ‘redesigned’ or rebadged Kanstuls – that must mean they’re not ‘redesigned’ or rebadged Kanstuls.
I have a particular interest in the flugelhorn. Sooner or later, I will give it a try. _________________ Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine
Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper
The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra |
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Accordion Ron Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Dec 2005 Posts: 584 Location: Haverhill, Ma
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Yo Shofar Guy! I would say you are the biggest Wild Thing Fan out there.
What I want is two new "wooden" mutes for my cornet. I've written to both Filp and Facet mutes and haven't heard from either of them yet. You can order Facet (is that name correct?) on the web. But they don't mention fitting the Wild Thing Bell. I read that they do make them to fit perfectly on special order. But how do you order them when they won't answer your email? |
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