soreness in rib cage sides and back

[deleted_user_680e93b]

so i've been doing the systematic approach first couple of exercises and some of the HAAA-toooo breathing exercises ala Eric bolvin and feel a soreness in the sides of the ribs and lower back. is this the place i should be feeling the tightness and soreness from doing these exercises?

[John Holifield]

Sound right to me. Claude said he would be sore in the areas after a grueling night of playing.
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Working hard is great. But, it is more productive and rewarding to Work Smart!

[John Mohan]

Absolutely correct. You'll find that with Systematic Approach, especially as you get to the Part 1 exercises of Lessons 3 thru 6 (which have the sustained note exercises sustaining notes starting at around middle C instead of down at low C), you're going to be feeling it.

Bes wishes,

John Mohan

[cheiden]

I considered it a revelation when a good workout on the horn left me with a sore body instead of a sore lip. The discomfort is temporary. The body will get stronger and the soreness will pass.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[ewetho]

Hey a year in and for the first time I am feeling this too. I got my new Schilke 20D2d w/22 throat in on suggestion from my teacher and everything is just got easier and more comfortable and now all the sudden for the first time I am actually getting it in the ribs and and sound is great too.

WOW!!!
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Kanstul Chicago 1001
CG Personal
Schilke 20D2d
Schilke 20D2d 22 throat

[deleted_user_680e93b]

Thanks for all the input, just wanted to be sure i'm on the right track. you know it's kind of funny, but the whole chest up, big breath thing just makes sense. you'd think i should have just known to do that since i'm blowing through a trumpet. but i can deal with the muscles soreness, it kind of feels good, like when i start my running regime every spring after the long winter layoff. playing the trumpet this winter definetly made my first run of the spring alot easier. thanks again.

[John Mohan]

Claude always said, "Let the air do the work. Let the air save the lip." It's always best to shift the work to the large, strong muscles of the back, chest and abdomen, and leave the more delicate muscles of the lips and face to do the fine motor coordination type stuff they need to do. This can't be done just be blowing hard ("aimless blowing" as Claude used to call it), but by using the airpower muscles properly and channeling and controling that airpower with the up and forward arching tongue.

But I think I'm preaching to the choir as you are clearly getting the feel of this yourself. Good for you!

John

[BPL]

Preach away, John.. we can never get enough.

An irony occurs to me. John you identify 2 elements.. the channeling of the air (the tongue), and the wind power. The irony is that the more efficient the channeling of the air, the less wind power that is needed (other things being equal).

I also note that in the absence of strong wind power, the tongue will never be able to find it's optimal position. It's as if the air flow shows the tongue where to go. It almost feels as though the sudden kick of air, actually causes the tongue to stay (or lift) up (that is, when the kick is not felt on the lips). I don't know if it's a reflex or physics, but that's what it feels like for me right now anyway. Claude might have said.. "let the air teach the tongue" (?)

OK, this is all a bit conjectural on my part.. I stand ready to be straightened out.

A year already, Tom? Time flies.

Brett

[razeontherock]

Brett, just shows how similar seemingly opposed schools of thought are. Bill Adam used an analogy of the embouchure as a carburetor, as in it can't be adjusted unless it's running. The "running" part of our embouchure? Air.

Sounds the same to me

[deleted_user_680e93b]

I agree with BPL, preach away Mr Mohan. I wish i had more time to work on this stuff. Played a gig last night, had a 20 song set sandwiched betweem two 12 song sets. really the first gig since starting this new stuff a few weeks ago and i felt pretty good. i tried to focus on the big muscles. one benefit i have found from all this and i'm not sure why i'm doing it, but i think its because of the pedals, i am holding the horn alot straighter out than i use too. i found it easier to play the pedals with the horn more or less straight out, i was playing with a little tilt down and to one side, but found that when i hold the horn straight out the i am able to keep the air coming thru with a little more sustainability. plus it just looks better on the bandstand, an added bonus. thanks again for the help to all.

[Cunuckle Head]

That's it!!!! I am on Lesson 19 of SA and have had great progress. However, I went on vacation about a month ago and than got quite sick resulting in a three week lay off. I am back on track with my practicing now, but have been feeling that things were not quite right and I feel like I have been working too hard. Reading this thread reminded me that I am not using the big muscles to do the "heavy lifting." It is amazing how quickly one forgets things and falls back into bad habits.
_________________
Rick

[Matt Graves]

Cunuckle Head:

It is always amazing how important form is in sports as well music, and, I'm sure, other disciplines as well. My young son, age 10 , is allowed to pitch for the first time this year. When I take him out to practice pitching and things are not going so well, I simply remind him about the simple form the coaches are teaching him and this is usually enough to "straighten him out" quickly.

Same thing here with breathing. Looks like you are on the right track.
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me at matthewjgraves@gmail.com
Author of Fundamental Flexibility Studies
Claude Gordon Certified Teacher
BAC Custom Dream Trumpet

[Cunuckle Head]

You are right Matt. It is interesting that you mention the sports comparison. I think that I have learned a lot about trumpet playing by running. From running I learned that when you are having a problem you need to slow down and focus on good technique and fundamentals and, unless there is an injury causing the problem, you will usually leap forward in your progress. In my "comeback" I have learned to apply this skill to my trumpet playing. Also, from running I have learned how to develop reasonable but challenging goals (short, medium, and long term) that I write down. Again, I have applied this to my "comeback" and I regularly journal. I find Journaling to be key in both pursuits for the simple reason that it provides me with an opportunity to see my progress. Is this something that teachers recommend to students? Another reason why running has helped my playing is that it has provided me an opportunity to listen to a lot of music and there are days when this is the only reason I hit the road .
_________________
Rick

[asndy1982]

[John Mohan]

By the way, I'm back at the beginning of the book. I started practicing again at the beginning of the year and was doing 2 to 3 weeks on each lesson. I had gotten as far as lesson 5, but then I missed several days of practice in a row, and this for me, causes the callus on my lip to dry out. Sounds a bit gross, but the dried callous was hanging from my lip annoying me, I tried to carefully pull it off and RIP. Bled for about an hour. Funny thing - I still did my routine that evening with little pain and no blood. But the next day, there was a bit of blood trapped under the surface. So I took three days off in a row to let it heal, and I started back on SA Lesson 2, along with some Irons and Clarke.

I took the opportunity to make a mouthpiece underpart switch just for the heck of it (it's wonderful not being responsible for 8 shows a week - I can lay off for a few days, I can switch mouthpieces - basically, I can be irresponsible).

Anyway, I am now playing my Reeves 43 rim with a CG Personal Underpart (Karl Hammond matched these up for me perfectly a few years ago). So, basically, I'm playing a CG Personal, but with a rim contour and size that works for me. The inner diameter of the Reeves 43 rim matches nicely to the inner diameter of a CG Personal IF the screw rim setup is made using the Bach threading system. With the Reeves system, more of the rim is left intact and in that case, the underpart's inner diameter winds up being a little smaller than that of the rim's inner diameter (due to the fact that the Reeves rim drops down in less of a V than that of the CG Personal mouthpiece rim and beginning of cup).

I also have a 43 Rim / CG Personal Underpart set up made with the Reeves threading system. That mouthpiece is quite playable, but there is the slightest difference in inner diameter where the two parts meet (the rim's diameter is a little bigger). This mouthpiece doesn't play as well for me - but that might be due to its smaller 22 throat (the one I like with the Bach threads also happens to have a number 20 throat - a real he-man throat). So I am using the set up with Bach threads and the #20 throat.

Of all the goofy reasons from me jumping to the CG Personal Underpart (I had been going back and forth between a stock 43C underpart and a Bach 3C underpart), what prompted me to do this was a visit to Jeff Purtle's website the morning I had decided to resume my playing. I listened to his file of him playing both parts of a duet version of Facination, and ending on a great highline going up to Double C:

http://www.purtle.com/assets/audio/Bud-Brisbois-Fascination.mp3

Jeff plays everything on a CG Personal, and that soundfile shows what one can develop playing a CG Personal. (Go listen to it, then come back and read on).

Then I happened across the recording he has from Claude' 1987 Brass Workshop with Claude lecturing on Wind Power:

http://www.purtle.com/assets/audio/Claude-Gordon-Brass-Camp-1987-Wind-Power-ref.mov

(This one's longs, so please listen to this one AFTER reading the rest of my paper)

If you listen to this one, about 23 minutes into the lecture, Claude has Carl Leach demonstrate how to do the exercises in Systematic Approach. Carl plays all of Lesson 2, both Parts 1 and 2, and takes it all the way up to a solid Double C. And the thing is, Carl did this on the CG Personal (Carl played Claude's CG Personal on his job as lead trumpet at the Flamingo Hotel for eight years). Hearing Carl play the routine on the CG Personal, with a huge, gorgeous sound, made me miss the sound I get on the CG Personal.

It takes less effort to play the upper register on my Reeves 43C (rim and underpart). But the sound is quite bright. With the CG Personal Underpart, I can make a nice, big, orchestral dark sound capable of doing a respectible Leonnore, or Mahler 5. But I can also make it nice and bright (and BIG) and do a show like "Cats". With the Reeves 43C, of course I can make it plenty bright for a commercial type job, but I'd get laughed out of an Orchestra if I tried to play Mahler 5 on it. You can vary the sound of the CG a huge amount.

The CG Personal definitely takes more endurance than a shallower mouthpiece like the 43C. But on the other hand, the same amount of practice on the CG Personal will build more endurance as well. And then, if I have a big, tiring show to play like "Cats" or "West Side Story", I can pop that 43C in and wail.

Disclaimer: Claude would not approve of changing even underparts. He's say, find a good mouthpiece and stick with it. And I have to say, some of the best pro players I ever worked with play everything on one mouthpiece.

But the great players I've worked with that play an extreme variety of styles, from rock to orchestral, tended to use different mouthpiece cup styles for different musical styles. They wouldn't vary to extremes, but they do vary a bit.

Make sense?

Does to me anyway.

About to start my daily routine on my CG Personal,

John

P.S. I strongly urge you all to set aside an hour and a half and listen to that CG lecture on wind power. It’s priceless.

[EricV]

Of all the goofy reasons from me jumping to the CG Personal Underpart (I had been going back and forth between a stock 43C underpart and a Bach 3C underpart), what prompted me to do this was a visit to Jeff Purtle's website the morning I had decided to resume my playing. I listened to his file of him playing both parts of a duet version of Facination, and ending on a great highline going up to Double C:

http://www.purtle.com/assets/audio/Bud-Brisbois-Fascination.mp3

Jeff plays everything on a CG Personal, and that soundfile shows what one can develop playing a CG Personal. (Go listen to it, then come back and read on).

Then I happened across the recording he has from Claude' 1987 Brass Workshop with Claude lecturing on Wind Power:

http://www.purtle.com/assets/audio/Claude-Gordon-Brass-Camp-1987-Wind-Power-ref.mov

(This one's longs, so please listen to this one AFTER reading the rest of my paper)

If you listen to this one, about 23 minutes into the lecture, Claude has Carl Leach demonstrate how to do the exercises in Systematic Approach. Carl plays all of Lesson 2, both Parts 1 and 2, and takes it all the way up to a solid Double C. And the thing is, Carl did this on the CG Personal (Carl played Claude's CG Personal on his job as lead trumpet at the Flamingo Hotel for eight years). Hearing Carl play the routine on the CG Personal, with a huge, gorgeous sound, made me miss the sound I get on the CG Personal.

It takes less effort to play the upper register on my Reeves 43C (rim and underpart). But the sound is quite bright. With the CG Personal Underpart, I can make a nice, big, orchestral dark sound capable of doing a respectible Leonnore, or Mahler 5. But I can also make it nice and bright (and BIG) and do a show like "Cats". With the Reeves 43C, of course I can make it plenty bright for a commercial type job, but I'd get laughed out of an Orchestra if I tried to play Mahler 5 on it. You can vary the sound of the CG a huge amount.

The CG Personal definitely takes more endurance than a shallower mouthpiece like the 43C. But on the other hand, the same amount of practice on the CG Personal will build more endurance as well. And then, if I have a big, tiring show to play like "Cats" or "West Side Story", I can pop that 43C in and wail.

Disclaimer: Claude would not approve of changing even underparts. He's say, find a good mouthpiece and stick with it. And I have to say, some of the best pro players I ever worked with play everything on one mouthpiece.

Jeff,
I tried to access these sound files on your web site with no luck. They sound amazing....are they going to work at some stage?
Cheers
Eric