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What is the status of Calicchio these days?


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sounds7
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: What is the status of Calicchio these days? Reply with quote

I know a few years back the company was in transition and had laid employees off, had long waiting periods to get a horn. Anyone dealt with them lately? were you pleased in the end? Also if you were looking for a trumpet for the specific purpose of lead playing which would you choose? 1s2?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds,

This is an easy one without even knowing John Duda or the details of his business. Calicchio's sales are severely hurting or non-existent. Even the best manufacturers are fighting for all they are worth just to stay in business today. This is not even in question.

So, to all of you who love playing trumpet, flugelhorn and cornet: Buy new from someone, if you can. You will be helping to save our trumpet industry to enjoy in the future.

Seriously,
Brian
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sounds7
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buying new is certainly my intention. Just doing my research before diving in.
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't heard from John for a few weeks, but he's still hanging in there and would surely welcome some orders. I've bought Calicchios in the last couple of years and been very satisfied with them - compared to a couple of older ones I have here, the latest ones are much better constructed horns, and beautiful performers. My R32 is way up there on my list of best horns I've ever played - some days I like it even better than my 1s/2. Both are relatively recent production, only a few serial numbers apart.

Like Brian said, everyone's fighting to stay in business, especially the smaller operations. I've heard this from another of the best-known guys in the business, and he and John deserve all the support we can give them during these tough times.
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Mikeytrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is more serious than a lot of us realize. We all know that the price of gold plating has skyrocketed the past few years, and silver is right behind gold. But....even raw brass stock. The good, American-made brass that a lot of companies use is also shooting up. Which is why some makers have gone overseas to have horns built. You ain't seen nothing yet.
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you feel that the market is unwilling to support small manufacturers who build the best trumpets? If we want the best and most custom horns, why is the market failing so severely? Certainly we can afford the best products because we do not have to buy new horns every year, so why so much market weakness these days?
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that people are holding onto their money and only buying if really necessary. It is no reflection on the quality or value of the instruments.
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sounds7
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think there is more competition in the marketplace than ever before. Lots of custom builders and greater access to foreign horn builders.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Drapp wrote:
Why do you feel that the market is unwilling to support small manufacturers who build the best trumpets? If we want the best and most custom horns, why is the market failing so severely? Certainly we can afford the best products because we do not have to buy new horns every year, so why so much market weakness these days?


Michael,

The press releases unemployment numbers of around 9%, right? These numbers, it has been revealed, do not reflect those that have run out of benefits, nor those that have given up on getting a job, nor those like me that are self-employed (and cannot file for unemployment) or those who are under-employed. In fact, even beyond these, the advertised number is adjusted down because the government has determined that there are less jobs available in the economy. So they simply eliminate that number from the unemployed total as if the actual people don't exist.

I, and some of my friends, believe that the real number should be somewhere between 35 - 40%, if truth be told. Couple that with the near elimination of school music program budgets and the customer base around which manufacturers built their businesses is almost non-existent.

Have you noticed how few new instruments, compared to used, show up in our "Look at my new horn!" threads here? We're the enthusiasts. If we're not buying new instruments in strong numbers, should we think the uniformed masses are buying them? They aren't.

If you can buy, buy new.
Brian
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:

....Have you noticed how few new instruments, compared to used, show up in our "Look at my new horn!" threads here? ....Brian

I haven't made a post like that because it's generally not my nature to do so, but if this encourages anyone to buy American and nobody minds that this might belong in a new post. Here are the items that I can remember that I purchased new from American manufacturers in 2011:
    Kanstul 991 trumpet
    Callet Super Chops 3S mouthpiece
    Facet straight mute
    Facet cup mute
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shmo_joe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Market cares only about profitability

low production cost and high sale prices = profit

Market does not care about quality


Michael Drapp wrote:
Why do you feel that the market is unwilling to support small manufacturers who build the best trumpets? If we want the best and most custom horns, why is the market failing so severely? Certainly we can afford the best products because we do not have to buy new horns every year, so why so much market weakness these days?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shmo_joe wrote:
Market cares only about profitability

low production cost and high sale prices = profit

Market does not care about quality


Michael Drapp wrote:
Why do you feel that the market is unwilling to support small manufacturers who build the best trumpets? If we want the best and most custom horns, why is the market failing so severely? Certainly we can afford the best products because we do not have to buy new horns every year, so why so much market weakness these days?


The "Market" is governed by buyers, not sellers. If their are no buyers, there very soon will be no sellers. You cannot profit from what you cannot sell.

Brian
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Brian A. Douglas

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There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
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mdiceman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds7,

I have a 1S/2 built in 2009 by John in Tulsa. Intonation is exceptional. Excellent horn in every regard. For lead playing, studio work an unequivocable YES! It's also useable in many other situations with a mouthpiece swap or different mental approach.
The core is unbelieveable. Quality is top notch.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, class. Time for Econ 101A.

The horn market, new or used, has a high elasticity of demand, that is, a change in price has a large effect on the demand of goods, particularly the quantity of the goods sold. In addition, you have a crappy economy where demand, which does govern the buyer primarily, lends itself to price shopping. In terms of the new trumpet market, this spells very hard times for small builders working on thin margins, but the buyer doesn't care about profit. They want value, and the best values, good times or bad, are in the pro used market.

If the small builder is smart, he/she shifts his focus to services, such as enhancement, brass repair and resale, where his margins are much higher. If not, he faces the vaguaries of the marketplace where pricing can padlock the door. This way he can continue to sell at a price point he feels is representatve of his goods, albeit at a low profit, and find some success.

You can tell the masses to buy new all you want, but it won't get them out of the thrift stores.

ed
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KingSilverSonic
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I visited the Tulsa Calicchio shop about 3 years ago and played a wide variety of horns. I was looking for one that was on the warm, darker side. John happened to have a new 1s/2 so I played it for a few minutes. I had a hard time telling the difference in that horn and my very nice Burbank Benge. So, yes, I would say that the 1s/2 would be a great choice for a lead horn. Plus, I recently got a CD from someone who played a 1s/2 and guess he wore it out. He told me that John made him a new horn so I assume that it was replaced with another 1s/2. Point is that some of his playing was very nice and mellow, yet I know that horn can light up when needed.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with littlerusty.

I know this much I used to make a lot of money as a White Collar contract worker for General Motor's. Then they decied that me and the other people under me that saved them 184 million the first year we where on the job and even more with each passing year cost too much. So they sent my job and a few hundred in the department to Pakistan and Canada. SO since then I have been doing a lot of temp work, farm work and labor working for less many per hour then I made out of High School living in Georgia.Most of the people I attend college with fall into one of two categories.....they have 2 really low paying crappy part time jobs or they have no job. Most of us have 4 year degree's in fields outside of medicine. Only about 50% are in medicine because they are interested in it the rest are in it simply because they are always hiring in the area. So add to that increasing food cost's, fuel cost's, energy cost's to heat ones home, and 3 kids which I love so much and that does not leave much for things one does not need. Christmas was much smaller this year then in the last 13 years.

So we are kind of in a pickle..... Government wont accept less tax's or reduce spending.....This means no new business ventures, slow hiring if at all and manufactures cannot reduce their prices much to get their retailers to reduce their prices with out some form of relief int he way of lower taxes, less medical cost's, less EPA red tape and fee's and so on.......Oh and low interest loans from banks to small and large business would be a good thing. They keep printing more money to bail out more foreign banks which causes inflation which drives up the price of goods because the dollar is now buying less globally and so one......

So the companies can not be price competitive, can not afford to invest in new technology to make for a more flexible manufacturing process to drive down unit price and drive up quality and lower rejection rates and do not see R&D as anything other then a cash cow with little return.

On the other side of the street consumer are not wanting to spend what little money they have saved why????? Lets see their 401K's, IRA's, Pensions and such might not be around or have tanked badly in the last 4 years or they are not getting as many hours at work or have lost their job so their savings is the only life boat they have.........or..............insert medical cost's or other unseen things........

Poor people do not create jobs and people with money with no clue about tax's, low interest loans, medical cost's are likewise not likely to take new risks!

So it is a nasty mess. This is why I got into repairing, modifying and putting my own horns together! In the current economy I simply could not afford a new horn. In fact I only spent $3500 for the ex's Buick LeSaber when I bought it so that kind of puts a $2000++++ trumpet in to perspective when viewd against an 80K mile Buick LeSaber.......That is like buying a $59 knife when you can buy a rifle for under $150........One has a lot more metal, parts, machine time etc..... and a much lower market and thus better value then the other. I for one do not think anything yamaha, Bach,Getzen,Kanstul etc... makes is worth anywhere near what they charge. In fact no modern mass produced trumpet is worth more then $1000 to me period. TO get more then that from me it would have to be built by hand and in the way that Monette,Taylor or Harrelson builds trumpets. After 7 years in manufacturing I know what somethign is worth and modern mass produced trumpets just do not do it for me. The collection of thin walled draw tubing just is not what I want in a horn costing a $1000 or more not unless I am getting a copper or rose brass bell and can really customize it. For me the cheap construction methods used for valve assemblies today just turn me off. I want more then 1800's trumpet technology and I want more then just French Besson clones!

So either the price point has to come down to match the lack of innovation and construction methods or OEM's need to raise their game to match the best things about Monette,Bauerfiend,Taylor,Harrelson and so forth and not just cosmetically either. I do not want to pay modern prices for ancient technology and designs. The fact that all the large OEM donot sell Monette,Taylor,Harrelson clones or best of design elements for rock bottom prices is to me a total disappointment and is missing the point of Henry Fords idea of "Mass Production".

The market is so saturated with French Besson profiles and Bach Profiles and clones that until something new comes along at a fantastic price point the market is stalled! This is the self correcting nature of a free market.If no one is buying what you are selling you do not make more of what is not selling. You actually talk to people in touch with what is out their and what would be wanted. Then you decided on a price point then you make it happen. If you do not then you go out of business. Sooner or latter their will be enough empty space enough of a vacuum that someone can come along and open a new business doing what you did not do. It will be small at first but if the market likes what they are doing then people will beat a path to your door.


I repeatedly laid out what needed to happen for domestic OEM's to stay alive and they ignored it. On the other hand I think Asian manufactures printed out the game plan I laid out in detail for free and have been following it to the letter. Can you say Deming and Detroit v.s. Deming and Japan............One laughed at him and lost their shirt the other embraced him and darn near over took the rest of the world until China came along! This is not about them needing the American Public's charity it is about them needing to be innovators and smart business men!!!!No amount of guilt purchasing by the faithful will save an industry when you have all those other forces listed above affecting it.
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What was the question, again?

OK: owning Calicchios from several stages in the company's history, I'll say it clearly: they're better now than they've ever been. The craftsmanship is exceptional. John's making better bells than ever before, and I have no idea how he manages to do that. The attention to detail is much better. And the finishing is also superb - plating done in the same facility (Marcinkiewicz), lacquer not officially offered but I know the guy who does the lacquer work when it's demanded, and there's nobody any better even if it does add time and expense to the process to use someone outside the shop.

As much as the Tulsa instruments were significant improvements over their predecessors, the Canby ones are even better. In all seriousness: anyone who wants a new Calicchio should act now.

I'll bet John's lead time to deliver a hand-made trumpet isn't as long as it would be if you ordered one of the Captain's legendary invisible creations.
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fredo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Duda is making a 3/7 for me , ordered 2nd week of November 2011.

He says me that he makes the horns alone (in the J Marcinkiewicz workshop).

He says me 3 months or so to wait to have it.

So wait and see (and play !!)
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Brian,

Yes, I have noticed that there is limited demand for new, pro-quality instruments. It used to be that I had to wait 9-12 months to receive a new Schilke that I ordered through Bronstein's; Schilke's largest retail dealer at the time. Today, you can go to several internet sites and order all of the Schilke's that you want...no waiting. I usually buy new, but occasionally a very special vintage horn will catch my eye and into my collection it goes! I tend to like pre-war Selmer-Paris and NY Strads...so I have to buy used in this case.

Underemployment is clearly an issue. So many people opted for advanced degrees during this past decade and there just isn't room for them in the domestic labor market; although some opportunities exist offshore. I'm an attorney by education and I learned a very disturbing fact; there are more students in law school today than all of the attorney's who have ever passed the bar! Law firms have always been selective, but one must graduate from a top-tier law school in the upper 10% of their class to be considered for an associate's position these days! Where are the remaining newly minted JD's going to find meaningful work...all of them don't play trumpets
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Value definitely rules the market now.

When I estimate a repair on a student-model trumpet (or other brass instrument) the question always asked is: "Would it be cheaper to buy new?" If the horn isn't trashed, of course it will be cheaper to repair, rather than go out on ebay or craigslist and take your chances.

In the pro market, it's Bach, Bach, Bach. All the teachers in this area recommend them as a first choice, and are dismissive of other great companies. So really good alternatives may get overlooked; parents of students aren't knowledgable and can't read minds.
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