Bach 37 generational differences?

[stanton]

I recently "accidentally" acquired a 1973 vanilla 37. It was my first "stock" 37. When I got it cleaned up it looked like it came out of a time capsule. Everything working like new.

Last night the kid who sits next to me played my horn vs his pre strike 37 (I'm guessing built somewhere after 2000). I was actually quite surprised by the sound difference. Both horns had similar core but his horn seemed quite a bit brighter than mine. I really expected much more similarity in sound.

Is a darker sound something that one should expect from a 37 of a '73 vintage? Or is the darker sound unique to my instrument? FWIW my horn does have the original brass valve guides, while his has plastic.

Thanks,
Stanton
_________________
Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece

[EdMann]

I've found that most early Elkharts have a darker core to the sound, in general, than later 37's. The brightest I've tried are the newer "True Bach" ones. Very even, great intonation, not at all dissimilar to the old New York 6/6's in blow and sound. Some early Elks get wonky, but sound amazing.

ed

[LittleRusty]

I own a '72 Strad that I purchased while in high school. I own a 2003-2004 Strad that I purchased for my son. I own a 2009 Strad that I purchased for myself.

To the best of my ability, and I don't play professionally at this time in my life, they all play identical when the gap is equalized.

But I did play test a number of Bachs before choosing the latter two, so that might account for why they play identical.

[crzytptman]

[tom turner]

Some SPECIMENS of a specific make and model of a horn, even made on the same day, can sound quite different. It's just the way it is.

Throw time and aging variations into the equation . . .
_________________
Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet

[MrOlds]

The two best 37s I've played were a Mt Vernon and a pre-strike horn. I once owned a 1974 37 that was indeed darker, and much stuffier than either the Mt Vernon or the pre-strike 37. I wish I'd bought the pre-strike horn. It was sweet.

Items I would look into with your two 37s:

• My 1974 valve block was a little smaller (valves closer to each other) than my Bach Chicago C, so I'm guessing the valve blocks on your two 37s might be a little different.
  
• Valve casings used to be two piece with nickel plated tops. Sometime in the 70s they went to all-brass.
  
• The bell bow may be slightly different between the two.
  
• The tuning slide might be a bit more square or flatter through the flat section on the newer horn.
  
• I seem to recall some titdbit about the bell bead having a brass rod during one period and a steel rod during another. I could be hallucinating about that one.
  
• The shape of the bell bead is likely different. More V shaped on the later horn. Rounder on the 70s horn. Might have some relationship to the previous point.
  
• Might want to check the weight of the two horns. My guess is they are slightly different.

[stanton]

[MrOlds]

Having said all that about the Mt Vernon and the pre-strike horns being the best I've played, it could be a random occurrence that I happened upon two really good examples from those particular eras. It is likely that there are many very good examples from all eras.

[poochie]

Every Horn Plays Different

[crzytptman]

[Capt.Kirk]

Agree horns play different. heck out Bach Loyalist or Daves page for some of the differences over the year's.

I prefer to look at them from th time Bach labeled the first trumpet Stradavarius until today.

Things ahve changed from year to year..........

Bell bow bend geometry many time.

Valve assembly used vary a lot since Bach used many different valve suppliers.

Tuning slide geometry so much so that some years will not interchange at all.

Changed geometry, spacing,bracing and conventional versus revered set up on the other tuning slides.

Thickness of tubing.

Thickness of bell.

Spacing between bore centers on the valve assemblies.

Cap weight and design.

Change in bracing locations.

Change in bracing designs.

Different length leadpipe.

Different length receiver's.

different guild materials.


That is just a short list you could go on for a long long long time.

On top of that two horns could be one digit apart in their serial number and have the same parts spec.'ed for them and both play rather differently.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[stanton]

Thanks for your responses. They brought up a lot of latent rememberances...

I think the weight of the bell might have the most to do with the sound difference. This horn feels a little on the heavy side, but I didn't play my friend's horn, so I don't have a recent reference. The other difference, I'm sure, are the brass valve guides.

I recall when I was studying with John Hagstrom some years back, I was surprised that my 229 was lighter than the other guys in my orchestra section, but about the same weight as his CSO issued 229. I think my 229 is roughly the same weight as the currently produced Chicago C's.

I don't think the geometry of the horn is anything out of the ordinary. I don't recall seeing much difference in bell bows or tuning slide crooks on the 37's. OTOH I haven't paid close attention either.

MP gap on Schilke M3 is .17". As a point of interest, the "wall" on the lead pipe is not the same thickness on all sides of the receiver. GR is similar at .141".

FWIW, this horn plays great. Plays open and resonant, but pretty dark (not a bad thing, necessarily). Still have to get used to the intonation nuances.

I'll have a better feel after rehearsal tonight.
_________________
Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece