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Does your trumpet need to vibrate?



 
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brassjunkie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Does your trumpet need to vibrate? Reply with quote

As players, do we really want parts of our horn to resonate/vibrate much and if so, which parts and why? You could argue that any vibration of metal in the horn = loss of energy in the sound coming out of the horn (I know Harrelson horns are designed with this in mind). We want a resonant sound not a resonating lead-pipe or bell, don't we?
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cyber_shake
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my Selmer Claude Gordon is a super light-weight horn. So much so you can rub the inside of the bell with your finger and see it on the outside of the bell ... and you can feel it vibrate from tuning C and lower. Dont know how to quantify the loss of power, but I think it is the physical nodes = sound waves flowing thru the horn. I like the feedback, but never noticed it on any other axe before.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your horn is not rigidly mounted, it's held in your non-rigid grasp. My heavy, rigid Buescher 400 will wobble in my hands when I'm resonant. I hear all this yammer about "lost energy" and so on.

The truth is that you can supply so much energy that any minimal losses in the horn are meaningless. Truly.

Tom
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mbradd
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always attributed the vibrations to when I'm playing properly, i.e. proper air support with all of my mechanics working. I used to work very hard to get it to happen on my Bach. My Adams vibrates like crazy with a heck of a lot less work. When my horn is vibrating, my sound is happening.
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Roel.Flores
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread. I love to feel my horn vibrate. Makes me think I am doing something right.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well my opinion is this. You want the bell flair to resonate at some point. Depending on the style of music and the size of the venue and if you have a mic then it is ok for various parts of the bell behind the throat to resonate as well. The important thing is to do so with intelligent design and intent.

You do not want to have the leadpipe, main tuning slide,outside tuning slides leading into the valve assembly or the walls of the valve assembly vibrating any more then can be helped. Their is a break even point where the weight needed to get past this would become too much but I can assure you anything being mass produced is a far cry from even being close. I have not handled or played a Schilke HD so I will omit it for now from the Mass Produced missing the mark list.

For the record I am not saying you need to have solid bronze leadpipe or sheet bracing and the like. The problem though is no OEM that mas produces trumpets will lift a finger to do the obvious because it might increase the cost insignificantly or make them look like idiots for not doing it before now. How do you one justify the increased cost to the board of directors and investors when so many are happy buying the same old junk year after year made with 1800's technology at best??? Second how do you come to terms with all the lie's about light weight valve assemblies blah blah that your company has been pushing for a long long time? Henry Ford did not want to stop making the Model T when he did so go figure! Let us not forget that he had to knock out the wall of his garage to get his first car out because he never thought far enough ahead about how he would get it out of the building which was brick with a small door when finished.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, any time a horn is actually vibrating in the hand it's distorting, just like a stereo speaker. I used to get this with a CG Benge and the distortion was very audible. Some listeners may hear this as excitement in the sound, but just like in a stereo speaker, it quickly gets tiring/annoying to the listener. However, the opposite, a horn that overly dampens tone is also a problem because it's dull and lifeless out front. A proper balance is the key. Rich and smooth yet brilliant and powerful out front are the aspects I believe we should listen for. Just my 2 cents in addition to the responses from other players that listened acutely out front. - Kyle
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oliver king
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

High or low, fast or slow, loud or soft ... a resonant sound is the goal.

When I feel the valve block vibrating in my hand; the sound behind the bell is 'lively' with an edge ... I'm pretty sure my sound out front is happening.
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laurent
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
The problem though is no OEM that mas produces trumpets will lift a finger to do the obvious because it might increase the cost insignificantly or make them look like idiots for not doing it before now. How do you one justify the increased cost to the board of directors and investors when so many are happy buying the same old junk year after year made with 1800's technology at best???

I guess that Courtois could be classified among the brands mass producing their horns, they do exist since 1803, and they have created quite a few innovative and heavy trumpets very efficient.

That being said, I believe that the so called "energy loss" isn't necessarily a problem: it's all a matter of balance.
A horn with a heavy bell will need a noticeable amount of energy to sound good, but on the other hand a trumpet with a light bell will sound awful if too much energy arrives to the bell...

Without a noticeable loss of energy before the bell, some wonderful trumpets just wouldn't be able to sound good!
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tpter1
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the horn should vibrate. That means it's resonating. I'll let the makers deal with energy loss or whatever balance needs to be present between one and the other.

In my dealings with a top orchestral player, he said it should "shake like mad", and is one of the most enjoyable things about morning long tones: feeling that vibration.

My take on that was (and is) this: horn vibration is essential... but not when forced and not due to volume. It is due to playing in tune with the instrument. It happens at soft dynamics as well as the fuller ones when playing properly. This concept Dave Monette also calls "blowing the braces off the horn". It happens when a sound is lively, rings, is full and clear. At all dynamics. It is a symptom of this - not a cause of it.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Luarent....Prob. I have do not have enough experience with their modern horns. I love the mass in some of their horns and some of Selmersof Paris horns valve assembly. Some of them had really nice solid heavier then normal valve assemblies The French and European OEM are in General just as guilty as the rest for not stepping out of the Besson Box and not using modern machining and design idea's by modern I mean post 1800's. Automating production methods does not make then any more modern just more efficient. it is kind of like a drilling a whole by hand or with an electric drill not really much difference in the technology just the power source.

Some production methods are fine but some need to change really and truly. For instance you can draw a leadpipe thick enough to not be much of an issue no need to cast them or machine them from solid brass etc....not for the type of improvement I am looking for in mass produced horns. The main tuning slides though are a different ball of wax. They either need to do what Monette is doing and at least decide to do what is needed to bend thicker walled tubing or they need to invest in more modern production methods to allow the use of thicker tubing. I do not expect them to do what Jasson Harrelson is doing with the two machined 1/2 machined from thick flat stock then joined together on the center line to get around bending issues and thick walls. Mandrel Tubing Bender along with annealing would lalow them to make slide walls 4x-10X thicker with more consistent wall thickness and no buckling, shrinking or stretching of the material and no need for ball out or ball out die operations. You basically pull a mandrel through the tube as you bend it. All modern day after market exhaust systems for high performance use this technique with some seriously thick non-user friendly stainless steel tubing. It is likewise not at all hard for them to draw the tubing thicker like the case of the valve assembly. All the tubes on a trumpet from the valve case's to the leadpipe are made by drawing tubing. In fact this is why as a given shape get's drawn to a larger bore size the wall thickness get's thinner. The drawing process stretches and thins the metal in the process. So if you want thicker wall for a given bore you have to start with thicker walled stock in the beginning.


It is not just a matter of lost energy it is a matter of what freq. are being lost and which ones are being retained. This is why most light weight trumpets if you tune at one extreme in terms of volume level and then play the opposite extreme you often have a huge shift as much as 15 cents or more either sharp or flat depending on which way you are going. In a horn that is not bleeding energy like a gunshot vicitum loseing blood you do not get this extrem shift. Once in a while you will come across a horn that is actually very stable and it is normally a horn that is slightly heavier then normal on the right side and the valve assembly.....No it does not need to be a beast!!!

It usually does not matter in life if we are talking about electrical power output feeding devices, torque and horse power or sound energy most machine like a steady stable clean energy or power input regardless of the form of energy being discussed. If we where talking about audio amplifer's or loud speaker's or Exotic Sport Car's or Diesel Electric Trains or Video Card and Power Supply issues in home gaming none of this would be up for debate. When ever we have poor coupling or poor power transfer when ever see linear function interms of what is being lost it is always a mix and it is usually different at different output and input levels.

Anyone that thinks loss of energy is not an issue need only look at a flute and trying to build one that can fill a large classical theater (sp) with sound with out an amplifier......It can not be done not with a human powered flute! Too much loss inherent tot he design itself that can not be over come. In a lip reed instrument we have far more control over where we experience the loss and what we want to lose versus keep.
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JonathanM
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Does your trumpet need to vibrate? Reply with quote

brassjunkie wrote:
As players, do we really want parts of our horn to resonate/vibrate much and if so, which parts and why? You could argue that any vibration of metal in the horn = loss of energy in the sound coming out of the horn (I know Harrelson horns are designed with this in mind). We want a resonant sound not a resonating lead-pipe or bell, don't we?


I read this thread this morning and enjoyed it. I've had a few horns that I really felt 'came alive' when I played them; some may say, 'filled the bell' or use another phrase - but it is an extraordinary feeling when one gets it going.

Strangely, just yesterday I picked up a Reynolds Professional cornet, made in about '57. The moment I worked the valves I knew the horn was special. It's a gorgeous instrument too, but when I played it today, after cleaning it up a bit (and it didn't need much) the thing just feels like it's alive in your hands. I started tonight on a low C - nice. Then depressed the second valve and played a low B - the horn just resonated down to Gb. The pedal tones were even, well, pretty!

I agree with several on here - a horn that resonates, or you may say 'vibrate' can be a phenomenal thing.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Projection

makes one's horn vibrate a certain way that you can feel in the valve casing area.

I asked Pops Clint McLaughlin about projection in a lesson once and what it meant and how does one know if it's happening.

He had me feel his horn when he played and then I was like "wow, I have never felt anything like that before".

He said that is all you need to know...."when you are 'resonating' at the core of the note at any dynamic level...then you will feel that."

This is the difference between players that sound loud and spread with their sound a foot in front of you and the player that gets heard 200 yards away at the back of the stadium.




loose metal sounding vibration and clanking sounds are completely different. If that is what you mean.... your horn has a loose contact or screw perhaps.


Happy playing.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the first things I noticed about my (new to me) 1957 Besson 10-10 was the vibration in my hand at the valve casings when everything felt right. When I'm using the right amount of air, when I'm relaxed, when my arthritic uncoordinated fingers are actually where they are supposed to be when they're supposed to be there, the instrument comes alive in my hand.

The first time it happened I took it to my repair guy and asked him to play it. I'd taken some other stuff over to be repaired and just wanted to make sure there wasn't a brace loose (my other experience with vibrating horns). He assured me nothing was wrong, and it had to do with the thinness of the
bell, same thing happens with Bach star bells and most Claude Gordon instruments.

I've A/B'ed it with my Harrelson 12-B and my kids assure me the volume doubles with the Harrelson out front while to me it sounds like it is dead behind the horn. Now this is not a fair comparison, as the design of the 12B and the 10-10 are from two entirely different directions, but made for a good contrast of design/effect.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as you are building something or purchasing or designing with intelligent design and intent their is no good or bad design if it fill a niche. The problem is that what is the best practice versus what is put on the market are two totally different things!

I think people over simplify things and want nice clean answer's that fit in a neatly labeled box. Guess what most of life that is true and real does not fit neatly in a clean tidy box with a label!The biggest prob. with the world is this kind of thinking!

I think if you look at Monette, Taylor, Harrelson, BestBrass and the like these guys are all doing best practice and all of them have varying levels of the truth. What do I mean by "truth" I mean they all have significant parts of the "best practice" puzzle with some having more then other's! Anyone not doing like is not doing the best they can for their customer's or the industry! They are just churning out more of the same and raking in profits and laughing all the way to the bank! If Ford went back to building the Model T and did a fantasist job of building them they would not be doing the consumer's any favors no matter how well they built those car's because a fantastically built ancient design is still that! Sure if you compared their fantastically built ancient trumpet design against another domestics trumpet oems ancient design made with equally ancient methods one might be better then the next but so what?

I do not want a Model T no matter how well it is made or when it was made. I surely do not want one with brush strokes in the paint.....LOL In terms of car's I want a Ford Mustang that I can afford not a model T. Liek wise in trumpets I want a Monette or Harrelson I can afford not a coppy of a Besson minus the fancy metal work and engraving! I can buy used Besson clones all day on Ebay that are 100-30 years old in decent shape that sound great so why would I pay top dollar for more of the same?
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oliver king
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:


I do not want a Model T no matter how well it is made or when it was made. I surely do not want one with brush strokes


2012 Model T ... Brushed Lacquer


The conversation was about trumpets right?

My daily player and back up both have a two piece valve block. I first noticed that vibe in both of those horns and thought it was a property of that configuration. But ... it's also present in my Kanstul 1500. Like has been mentioned in many posts ... I believe it's an indicator that my sound is at least on the right track.


Last edited by oliver king on Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Noblet trumpet that did that, and I loved it. Great dark tone. The consensus is they were made by Courtois. Should have kept it for backup at least. Very solid build.
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tpter1
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:

Anyone that thinks loss of energy is not an issue need only look at a flute and trying to build one that can fill a large classical theater (sp) with sound with out an amplifier......It can not be done not with a human powered flute! Too much loss inherent tot he design itself that can not be over come. In a lip reed instrument we have far more control over where we experience the loss and what we want to lose versus keep.


Huh. Must be my ears deceive me when I go to flute recitals.
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sounds7
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Martin vibrates, my Bravura not as much. Both are great horns IMO. I work harder on the Martin but hear myself better if not mic'd. To the audience or the recording if I'm in the studio, you wouldn't know if the horn was vibrating or not.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So Mr. King If you play the same horn but I numb your hands with Novocaine or any of the caine-sister only on the surface does the audience some how not get the sizzel because your hands can not feel it???If you wear gloves light weight leather and your hands do not get as much vibration does the audience know this? Your logic is totally flawed from any thing remotely based in mathematics and engineering. Stop and think about how silly you sound saying something like that. The bell is not a direct extension of the valve assembly in fact we have natural trumpets with no valve assembly and if you design them right they sizzle even though have no valve assembly to resonate in your hands. If the trumpet is hanging in free space or mounted to a stand and you can not feel the valves but can acute them does the sound suffer?

In in the instrument owner world would something as fundamental as making each part specifically with the end mission in mind seem out of place. Their is nothing that strikes me as more against logic or intelligence then thinking that all parts of the horn's tubing and all of it's bracing must match. Imagine a bridge if all the parts where built to the exact same thickness in their walls. Imagine if house plumping had pipe walls as thick as a water main or if water mains where limited to the thickness of the tubing in your home....It sounds utterly stupid does it not?????

On top of that no trumpet player can be behind the bell and in front of the bell at the same time you can not bi-locate Mr. King. You have no clue in real time what your audience is hearing as you hands are feeling the wasted vibrations. First sound can travel through the metal you have your hands wrapped around much faster then it can travel through air it is a mathematical certainty based on the density of the material.....If I recall it is something like sound travels through brass at a rate of 10X faster then it can travel through air on top of that at best you 5 cent's of discrimination from a given pitch plus or minus after that you are guessing and it is not linked to your palms but to your ears and brain. So the way that physics in the real world works in spite of what you might choose to think about reality and perception is not that flexible. The combination of how the human body works you can not link how your hand is vibrating to what the audience is hearing or even with precision to pitch. If I cut off you ability to hear and made you play based just on what you hands and lips told you their is no way you could play your way out of a wet paper bag. Not you personally but 99% of humans on the earth. In fact if you have ever heard a very highly skilled and highly trained member of the Deaf Community speak that has ZERO hearing you can always tell even though it is incredible that they can do that. We are designed to work best in a given way everything else is just something else sometimes helpful sometimes not. Kind of like how I like to see a persons lips when they speak to me especially if it is a woman it helps. Sight is not the primary means of understanding oral communication but if someone is not enunciating clearly a t can sound like a d for instance but it does not replace my sense of hearing as the primary tool to understand speech.

I know you hate me that is fine I could care less but science is not about like or dislike it is about facts, number's, what can be measured repeatedly. The one thing all of the large multi-million dollar OEM's that build horns are afraid of are facts, hard number's.....When they need a hand they call in a man like Byron AUtrey who use's number's, measuring deices and the scientific method but that is just for their benefit when it comes time to sell it their is no fact just opinion and sizzle. It is not like I am talking about something unknown like the earth not being flat to people 4000+ years ago or something insane like gravity or time and space being linked and not able to be separated hence the modern term time-space. We are talking about middle school and high school level Physics, Drafting, Machine and Tool type idea's here. If you want to ignore these idea's that fine their are people that think the world is flat and that blood letting is a legitimate medical treatment and that the Worker's Utopia can be realized in spite of all of the past attempts.

So Conn paid $15,000 dollars for a worthless leadpipe that Monette Designed? All the fantastic trumpet players Playing Monette's or Harrelsons based on "science" that only a hand full of other's embrace and no large OEM embraces is just a bunch of people with more money then brains???? I mean nothing I have said violates anything that Harrelson, Monette or Taylor do routinely. You just hate that I am saying it basically!

I would say it is easy to be critical of other's that put fourth idea's that violate convention in a given community. You do notice that Dave and Jason do not post on forums like this one at all. Oh and for the record I am not at all angry or upset my tone is pleasant but I do wish you would stop and just be honest....You do not so much hate the message just the messenger.

You never confront facts with facts or science with science. It is always something subjective like your ability to hear what the audience hears in relationship to how you hands are vibrating. Challenges my facts not me as a person.

Do you disagree with my statement that it is about what is vibrating and when? How about that their is no bad design so long as it is approached with the idea of intelligent design based on mission requirements. A light weight horn is total garbage for trying to fill up a large stadium with sound. On the other hand it can be fantastic for small intimate venue.Does the idea of having a heavy leadpipe, heavy main tuning slide, heavy receiver and light weight bracing and light weight bell some how violate some laws of physics or idea's about how resonating bodies can be tuned by their rigidity, density,mass or the materials etc????? What is so offensive to you about a horn that is not made like everything Bach,Getzen,Kanstul,Conn, B&S, and all the other large OEM make?

Do note that the harshest thing I have said is that I think your idea's are silly and violate basic science. I have again asked you to debate idea's not me as a person or the message. What part about what I said in my original reply violates any thing remotely based in science or math about a resonating body? Here is your chance to show me......how silly I am with my idea's? You can also tell all those famous guys that build high dollar trumpets that people line up and wait to buy how wrong they are. I am sitting on the edge of my bed as type this anticipating how so many guys that sell expensive trumpets to world class professional have all got it wrong!?!?!?
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