What is a good tone ?

EdMann · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject:

A good tone today is yesterday's thin tone, or fat tone, or untone. Some horn makers tell me that Monettes are simply not trumpets. Oh, they resemble them, and they demand a trpt mpc, but if you were to go back in time to the Capital Records studio in 1957 with an Ajna, they'd chase you out to Vine St. and stone you (of course they do that to all the time travellers...). Everything changes.

In his book, Roger Ingram tells a tale about how the lead trumpet sound of the 50's and 60's morphed when the screamer parts showed up in the 1st book, most evident in Woody Herman's bands. This demanded that the Gozzos of the world rethink what they would have to do to sail over the band as they had. Big, fat lead sounds like his were shown the exit. Smaller mpcs were de rigueur and thus the sound changed. Then Bill Chase started soloing... from the 1st book! You had to do it all, but you weren't going to sound like Goz doing it (hey, who has but him!?)

Just today I tried a new carbon-belled B&S Bb trumpet, and there you go, another derivative sound. Totally unique. Will it take over the trpt world? Maybe...

Many heros of the past are still around, and thank goodness for them and the great recordings they left for us to pattern sounds, otherwise the present trpt/cornet sounds would be the baseline.

ed

nieuwguyski · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject:

And groups of all sorts have gotten louder. I believe I've read that of brass bands as well. The "good tone" of yesterday may simply not be aggressive enough to be heard today.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

w00005414 · Veteran Member Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384

I can totally appreciate Phillip McCann and Gerard Schwartz because I am amazed at how easy they make playing technically sound, but I don't like McCann's super quiet playing and overkill vibrato and Gerard Schwartz played so perfectly it gets boring.... but maybe that was the 'sound' at the time. I think they would get more notoriety if they could open up their sound and add some edge to it. Same thing with Maynard but on the opposite end, I used to be amazed by how he could scream but I listen to it now and it just sounds silly.... really silly. Maybe the 'sound' is a general business sound that you can adapt to any style that is called for?

I love listening to Bobby Hackett play the cornet, there are little to no high notes and he doesn't blow the doors off the room but he is so creative with how he interprets a melody that you just hang on your seat.

I have no idea where I'm going with this, just thought I would chime in

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Brian Gibson

spitvalve · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject:

Tone is as individual as one's voice. My 17-year-old son is playing equipment that by all conventional wisdom should be a total mismatch for him. He weighs 105 lbs wringing wet and is playing my 1982 Claude Gordon Selmer (.470 bore) with a Warburton 4MC top on a 4* backbore. Big horn, big cup, tight backbore--and he sounds great! I've listened in on several of his auditions for region and area concert and jazz bands, as well as some of his solo and ensemble performances. The other kids in the room were mostly playing Bachs and Bach clones, with Bach mouthpieces. I didn't even have to be watching--I could be outside of the room in the hall--and still recognize his sound immediately. Several of the kids at these auditions have commented on the depth and warmth of his sound and have expressed real envy. Just about anyone who hears him says he has a great tone.

In most of the auditions he's done really well because of his big warm sound, and most of the judges have been very impressed. In a few he hasn't done as well because those judges wanted it to sound like a tight bright Bach--their ears couldn't detect the color and breadth in his sound. Those are probably the same guys that make all the trumpet students in their bands play 7Cs.

In attempts to get my beloved Selmer back (we had it refurbished about a year ago and it plays like the day I bought it), I've offered to let him use my Bach. But when he plays the Bach he loses most of what makes his sound so great, and he sounds ordinary--like the other kids in the auditions. He also complains that the Bach is too stuffy!

It's a shame that some types of sounds fall out of favor or out of style. I understand the need for some conformity of sound, but I've heard lots of groups where different sound colors blended beautifully, and others where identical sounds in the section just didn't send me. Maybe those front row cornets and the conductor in the OP's band need to listen to more old recordings.
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Bryan Fields
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1991 Bach LR180 ML 37S
1999 Getzen Eterna 700S
1977 Getzen Eterna 895S Flugelhorn
1969 Getzen Capri cornet
1995 UMI Benge 4PSP piccolo trumpet
Warburton and Stomvi Flex mouthpieces

p76 · Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject:

Perspective,

Yes, the tone in BBBs have changed considerably. I play in Australia in a local community band in the front row, with some younger players and a few older players.

The old players invariably have older Boosey & Hawkes cornets, with mpcs such as Cosicups.

Most of the younger players have Besson or Yamaha, and use a wider range of mpc, including Wick, Yamaha, and Bach.

While this makes some difference, I think the major difference is the teaching that now occurs - I started off on trumpet in school, as did most of the younger players in the band, and so our first conception of brass sound is trumpet. The older players, who learned through the band, have a much sweeter tone (such as yours I would imagine).

However, our bandmaster has not demoted anybody - in fact, depending on what we're playing, he will ask the sweeter players to play any solo parts - especially on hymn tunes.

I guess time moves on, and what was in is now out. Personally the older sound is the one I like.....even though I haven't got it!

Cheers,
Roger (Secretary, Creswick Brass Band)
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Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

perspective · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:45 am Post subject:

Thanks for the advice, fellas. Just to provide a bit more info, I'm talking about the 1950s ( I'm 77 now ) when I recall the brass band cornet sound being markedly different to what I hear today. Yes, there was more vibrato, but not excessive and somehow, sweeter - not metal ringing which is very much the current sound. Also, notably in slow solos, it was more off the tip of the tongue. What I hear today is a quite different starting transient. It's always difficult to describe a sound but if you say -nyaah, you will have some idea what I mean. It seems to be a very precise way of playing as the pitch is being formed in a controlled way from the start. The impression I get is that the top of the tongue is used against the roof of the mouth- at least that's the only way I can mimick it. I don't lke it that much though.
Is it possible that cornets were of a narrower bore back then. I seem to recall talk of the cornet being of a sharper pitch than the trumpet and it was necessary to pull the slide out to get it in tune with a trumpet. I suppose I would never have noiticed all this had I played continuously since the 50s, but I didn't, I quit in 1954 and I didn't become interested again until 2004 - some 50 years !

hien peter · Veteran Member Joined: 13 Apr 2007 Posts: 307

for me - a good tone comes with ease
as playing a flute or blowing over a bottle neck
nearly no pressure, nearly no compression

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playing trumpet is like meditation

Strad H37 & G 7s
martin committee 1946
Weimann C, Strad C
Conn V1 FH & MB6

p76 · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject:

Perspective,

You are right about the pitch, it used to be higher, but changed to " standard" (440) in the 60's I think.

Everything changes I guess, and one shouldn't discount the influence of other forms of music on BBBs. The professionalisation of the movement in Britain, with courses etc. probably also has something to do with the homogenization of the sound, and perhaps with the move to a more orchestral brass sound, which is what has happened.

I still don't really understand why that means you get demoted though, as surely a BB needs the "old" sound as well.

As to whether the instruments has changed, well, yes, they have, but I think it might be more to do with the mouthpieces. What mouthpiece do you play, out of interest?

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

Bob Stevenson · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:48 pm Post subject:

I fear this has almost nothing to do with 'tone' and much to do with non musical ideas including some modern attitudes to social class and background and education found among the new would be 'elite' in the brass band movement......

.......I don't think I would be able (or want to) explain this to our American friends here. Strange how old predjudices keep returning like bad pennies.

p76 · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject:

You could be on to something there Bob. Happens here in Oz too.....in fact there have been times when I myself have been guilty of it. Thankfully I grew out of it

Cheers,
Roger
_________________
Bb - Selmer Radial, Yamaha YTR634, Kanstul 1001, Kanstul 700.
C - Yamaha 641.
Cornet - Olds Ambassador A6T, Besson 723, Olds Ambassador Long.
Flugel - Kanstul 1525
Mpc. - ACB 3CS, ACB 3ES, Curry 3BBC, Kanstul FB Flugel

percivalthehappyboy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Mar 2010 Posts: 731

Shaft · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 985

1---Listen to what the people in the front row sound like.
2---Talk to "them" about their equipment/set up
3---talk to the "conductor"; it is his ear that you need to fit with

4---Always----"Match what is necessary for the gig.....or leave"

Life goes a whole lot better when these steps are observed.
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