Joined: 17 Dec 2007 Posts: 1360 Location: West Medford, MA
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:27 am Post subject:
TrpPro wrote:
pepperdean wrote:
Carmine Caruso said he liked to use pedals because they taught 'the lips how to work without the twist (pivot).' He prescribed those exercises to assist students in cutting down on excessive pivot.
Alan
... and excessive pressure.
--- lessis quite often the happy complement of more, tho neither can completely replace the other.
People have different percentages of different types of muscle fibers. That makes some better at sprinting, and others better at long-distance running. Perhaps the same is true of facial muscles used for gettin like Gabriel?
If so, then each camp serves the best interest of trumpeters whose bodies have different potentials.
For instance, I can build muscle very quickly. However I can also easily over-train and hit the wall, crash and burn, etc. My buddy HAS to work-out or else his muscles disappear. Different strokes...
It is more a matter of doing what works FOR YOU once you find it. _________________ kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. 28A
I find that if I can get F (below F#) down to C# to sound very close to F# and up, I will have increased resonance throughout my range. If I can get C below F# to play on pitch and with some semblance of resonance, it really gets my Maynard on. If I can play a true C pedal, I can play down to the next C.
I don't always do them. Right now, I don't always do any trumpet playing, but if I have a good run of a few days and get into pedals seriously on about day three, they really help get me in shape.
Dear God,
I'd like to come back to my comeback. Can You help?
Thanks,
Brian _________________ Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:48 am Post subject:
John Mock wrote:
In the past I have erred in using too much pivot or vertical motion while playing. I had a teacher who recommended some rather extreme two octave slurring exercises through all partials (as a warmup) that got me into that bad habit, and it was exceedingly difficult to break with the next teacher.
Now that I've pretty much corrected that habit, I still don't play pedal tones, because I don't want to get into the bad habit of excessive motion or embouchure manipulation or too open of an aperture--so I generally work the range I will play. However, my upper and lower range consequently are likely not as good as they might be if I did practice pedal tones.
When warming up now, I tend to play a lot of chromatics instead of big slurs, and I focus on consistent sound production. When I do slurs, I try to surprise myself with what the next note or interval is going to be--it helps to develop my embouchure--to pre-hear an interval and then slowly, cleanly do it.
Though I do not know my exact Reinhardt type, I have a good idea of how my pivot has to work for me to be successful.
John
The way I do and teach pedal tones is to not change, manipulate, have any change in motion or open the aperture. This is not necessary to do pedals. You should be able to move between pedals and regular notes smoothly so any major changes to the embouchure will not allow for that smooth transition. All that's needed to play pedals is relaxation of the lips, but without letting the whole embouchure go loose. esp. the corner muscles. At first I have my students play at an easy volume. At first they may not have the strength to play with a full robust sound be it will develop.
I like playing pedals because they relax the embouchure and at the same time get a lot of air flowing. Also there is no mpc. pressure when playing pedals correctly. It does strengthen the embouchure for the upper register. But again a lot of people don't do them and they have great chops. _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com bgrierjr@triad.rr.com
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 1836 Location: New York
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:06 pm Post subject:
John Mock wrote:
Big Dave88 wrote:
im sorry you have a problem with the way i organize my thoughts. in my humble opinion, nuggets of sentences are much easier to read(and write/organize) than a massive wall of text, even with indents for that matter. my posts are typically pretty verbose anyways, so if you dont wont to work to read them, i would simply suggest skipping them. forgive me for trying to make a meaningful contribution to the forums in the way i see best.
Big Dave88--
I actually thought crzytrpman was pretty respectful with his comment about the grammar, and I have to agree with him--the post was very difficult to read as a result of the formatting and lack of capitalization, etc.
Nobody is taking issue with the content or the usefulness of the content. I'm on here trying to learn from your content just as others are. Also, your posts are nowhere near as long as Captain Kirk's.
If you will permit an example, I work as a civil engineer. Nobody will accuse engineers of being experts at English grammar--However, we are dealing with public safety and as licensed professionals can be sued if someone is injured as a result of something we design. Nowadays it is imperative for all engineers to be pretty good at grammar and spelling. Many folks in this economy are trying to find a decent job, yet we receive resumes from new or recent college graduates for the current job openings that contain mistakes and even just awkwardly worded phrases. If there's a single grammar mistake or mispelled word anywhere on the resume, it goes in the trash (that's not my decision) and it doesn't matter how smart or qualified the person is--the expectation is we are dealing with public safety and getting the little details right on a plan is of paramount importance. It is assumed that if the resume is not right, the work product won't be either. Details do matter.
It is actually very frustrating to read many posts on these forums where no capitalization is used at all, and some folks use no or very little punctuation but just write a lot of run-on sentences. It makes things more difficult and time consuming to read and digest than if good grammar was used.
Crzytrptman and others are just making the suggestion: hey, let's try to do a little bit better job of using correct grammar, that's all.
That doesn't mean your posts are not wanted.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
well here's the problem with this... and let me first stipulate the lack of comma between well and here implies a colloquial and relaxed manner of address... the english language is a moving target on a good day and you certainly have to expect internet chat to have its way and not just with the acronyms. i understand that those of us who go our improper lower case ways will not get employment in the engineering field. i appreciate the opportunity to have some creativity with this,,, especially with punctuation.
chuck
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject:
The Internet is no excuse not to use upper case letters in the right place. I use to grade public school end of grade essay papers. I had to stop because of the poor grammar. Come on, it's not that hard to do ot right! _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com bgrierjr@triad.rr.com
Is it cheating to use the Flugelhorn to practice your pedals? _________________ -fred
Lots of horns available to try and buy (or just try) in the Albuquerque Area (Especially Kanstul trumpets) - PM if you'd like to stop by.
Joined: 29 Jan 2005 Posts: 629 Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject:
robertgrier wrote:
The Internet is no excuse not to use upper case letters in the right place. I use to grade public school end of grade essay papers. I had to stop because of the poor grammar. Come on, it's not that hard to do ot right!
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:50 am Post subject:
ohiotpt wrote:
Is it cheating to use the Flugelhorn to practice your pedals?
NO, it's not. The pedals on a flugel are like the pedals on the lower brass horns. It's because the bell on the flugel is big enough to resonant with the pedals. The trumpet bell is too small for the pedals to truly resonant. _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com bgrierjr@triad.rr.com
Joined: 19 Jul 2004 Posts: 433 Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject:
My take on the pedal register is that it teaches you to maintain support in the corners but simultaneously staying relaxed in the middle where the vibration occurs. Given time and diligence, this practice in the pedals extends itself into the normal playing register after the habit is established there. _________________ CG Benge
CG Personal
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: why are pedals so awesome?
mathgeek wrote:
My take on the pedal register is that it teaches you to maintain support in the corners but simultaneously staying relaxed in the middle where the vibration occurs. Given time and diligence, this practice in the pedals extends itself into the normal playing register after the habit is established there.
Agreed.
Pedal tones (played in tune) are outside the the resonant slots in a trumpet. Sometimes playing a pedal tone in tune, while resisting the normal characteristic of the horn trying to to pull you into a more resonant tone (slot) is very difficult. It can feel like you are on a knife edge.
In order to achieve it successfully requires a very high level of skill and practice.
Acquiring this level of neuromuscular control over the lip musculature and aperture will make playing in the normal playing range (and resonant slots) of the instrument feel easier. This should then translate into improved tone quality and efficiency (endurance).
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject:
Jerry Freedman wrote:
Pedals can't be that great since Reinhardt refused to allow his students to play them and this taboo still exists yet Reinhardt students play great
Yea, and of course Reinhardt was right all the time about everything trumpet. _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com bgrierjr@triad.rr.com
Joined: 29 Jan 2002 Posts: 2256 Location: Burlington, Massachusetts
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Yea, and of course Reinhardt was right all the time about everything trumpet.
Funny, I looked at what I typed and I said nothing about Reinhardt being right all the time. Pedals, depending on what what means by pedals and what it means to play them "correctly" can be very helpful, useless or detrimental. Refer back to Jeff Smiley's post in this thread
Joined: 10 Mar 2004 Posts: 387 Location: Johnson City, Texas
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:06 am Post subject:
Fro various threads on TH, I'd believe the Reinhardt mantra was 'no pedals.' From my personal experience with Doc, taking lessons from him for about two years, I can't remember pedals ever being mentioned. He did not prescribe them but he did not campaign against them.
During that time, I'm sure I did some pedal practice. It just wasn't part of his routine.
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:45 am Post subject:
Jerry Freedman wrote:
Quote:
Yea, and of course Reinhardt was right all the time about everything trumpet.
Funny, I looked at what I typed and I said nothing about Reinhardt being right all the time. Pedals, depending on what what means by pedals and what it means to play them "correctly" can be very helpful, useless or detrimental. Refer back to Jeff Smiley's post in this thread
It's called sarcasm. Reinhardt thought that pedals would cause damage. I disagree. When done correctly pedals are beneficial. But I disagree with about half of what Reinhardt says. _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com bgrierjr@triad.rr.com
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 2503 Location: Garland, Texas
Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:16 am Post subject:
Jerry, you basically said that pedals can't be that great because Reinhardt didn't advocate them. That makes Reinhardt the reference standard for what is great.
While I'm sure that it pleases the Reinhardt disciples, it is obviously a polarized viewpoint, not indicative of the whole. Pedals are neither good nor bad because of Reinhardt, but because of their effectiveness.
Normally this effectiveness is measured within the context of a method. For that reason, saying that pedals are great or not great, without an agreed-upon context, has virtually no meaning.
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 340 Location: Pennsylvania
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:02 am Post subject:
Being largely self-taught, I never knew how to play pedal tones, and didn't want to do it wrong and possibly mess up my playing. So this thread intrigued, and confused, me. Then I found this video by Charlie Porter (great player!!) that explains what they are, how to play them, and the difference between the ones that are "true fundamental pitches on the harmonic series" and those that aren't. I tried following Charlie's instruction, and pretty quickly was able to get a decent C, B and Bb pedal.
I dislike dogmatic acceptance or rejection of any technique. Use whatever helps and doesn't hurt. While I still have a heckuva lot of room to improve my pedals, I can see how these tones, done right, can do all the things Charley talks about. Maybe this video can help some other people too.
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