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Need your help on a design issue. Everyone...please read.


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cb3
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Need your help on a design issue. Everyone...please read. Reply with quote

I am looking for help from experienced horn techs, makers or people with personal expierience.

I'm getting a custom trumpet made for me very soon and I need some suggestions. The maker is open for anything so this will not offend him (I MAY reveal his info. at a later time).

This is what I'm seeking in a trumpet: For personal reasons, I'm looking for a horn with EXTREME player feedback(I'm talking the loudest horn ever made). Now don't get me wrong, audience feedback is important as well, but as I wrote earlier, player feedback is most important. So on a scale of 1-10, I want player feedback to be 10 and I would accept 8-10 in audience feedback. Assuming this is possible, what do I need to tell him in terms of construction? I've heard a wide wrap is a must and I want a large bell but other than that, I'm not sure. Looks are not important so PLEASE do not be afraid to think outside the box.

Please keep your answers to my specific topic.
NOT INTERESTED IN BUYING A PRODUCTION HORN
Thanks in advance

P.S. Just in case someone is wondering, I am happy with my current main horns lol.
P.S.S. If you have even one negative thing to say concerning this post, PLEASE move on and do not write it here. This is a very serious issue for me and I only want positive but knowledgeable answers.
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Flugelhorn:
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Last edited by cb3 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:26 am; edited 4 times in total
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, since you want maximum player feedback, this pic posted by someone else into another thread immediately sprung to mind.



If you have a custom builder willing to do whatever you want, this seems like the perfect way to go to achieve your goal.
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cb3
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didn't. think I'd have to write this but PLEASE ladies and gentleman, serious and real adult answers ONLY. Thanks again
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



And if that's a bit too much of a 10 on the player feedback scale, you might consider something shorter - with a shepherd's crook, maybe two. Look at a Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt, a Puje, an Ogilbee Thumpet.

Beyond that, your builder will know very well how to increase the player feedback as long as you give him a free hand in selecting bell material and profile.
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gbdeamer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play on a horn with a rimless (copper) bell. It gives me more feedback than bells with a rim.

I would imagine a rimless bell with a slight (Dizzy-style) angle would give you even more.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This one would probably not work, but have you considered making a double bell trumpet with identical bells branching from a single leadpipe / single valve cluster?
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brandonstewart
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go rimless bell and get it closer to your ears - dizzy-style or cornet/pocket wrap.
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John Mock
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not simply try out one of the good pocket trumpets out there? The ones with the full size bell. Having it so close to your face offers improved feedback. I have read on these forums that some players prefer them for loud venue situations where you can't hear yourself as well.

I'm saving to buy a pocket trumpet right now...it might be cool for the church settings I usually play in.

John
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of the horns I play, the Lightweight 400 gives me the most feedback to the ears. They all vibrate in my hands about the same. It's lightweight in its bracing and slide tubing. The bell is the same thickness as my other horns.

Tom
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cb3
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChopsGone wrote:


And if that's a bit too much of a 10 on the player feedback scale, you might consider something shorter - with a shepherd's crook, maybe two. Look at a Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt, a Puje, an Ogilbee Thumpet.

Beyond that, your builder will know very well how to increase the player feedback as long as you give him a free hand in selecting bell material and profile.


I mean seriously, how would this horn be an 8-10 to the audience? Also, I'm getting a horn custom made, NOT interested in hearing about buying one that's already made. Thanks
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davidkoch
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guys that play the firebird say that it's got insane feedback due to the slight upturn in the bell... A Ganchhorn (sp?) also has insane feedback. Not so sure about a 10 though....
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most feedback of any trumpet I've ever played came from a Benge 5 bell. I used to own a 5X and it had the strongest, most accurate feedback, bar none. Russ DeGate's (topo3man) "Wilmington Benge" custom 5X+ had perhaps a little less due to the fact that it had a lighter weight bell that gave a little bit of a transparent tone.

Some of the feedback comes from the mouthpiece, but that is hit-and-miss.

Generally, lighter weight horns offer more feedback (which might be called bleed-back), but the bell design has a whole lot to do with it, too.

Others to consider: Kanstul #7 bell, Kanstul E-bell (as on the KTR700).

Brian
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tom turner
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like a pair of hearing aids would give you the loudest sound, to the player, possible . . . while not making the horn much to loud to properly blend with the other instruments.

People who play too d___ loud don't get many gigs.

Then again, playing too d___ loud is a phase that many of us went through as young trumpeters, myself included.

In any event, good luck with your quest.
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veery715
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A light horn (generally) will loose more energy between mouthpiece and bell. It has to go somewhere so it follows it would go to the player. A French bead on the bell helps direct feedback to the player. Rounded tuning slides yield less feedback than (squared) ones with smaller radii, and that applies to other bends in the horn as well.

It might be a good idea, even though you are asking us not to reference already built factory horns, to get some input about what horns currently available are known for yielding what you seek. Then you could compare and contrast the attributes, specifications, and other parameters of those instruments to see where there is commonality.

One more apologetically irrelevant comment is that mouthpiece design and mass contribute heavily to the feedback equation.

Schagerl has designed a trumpet called the Raven for James Morrison. It has rotary valves and is a short instrument which brings the bell closer to your ear - with greater feedback resulting. So you might consider stealing some of its design features.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a given amount of energy in the equation. If you use traditional "energy bleed" techniques (lightweight construction, bell braces moved back or removed, french bead or no bead on the bell rim, etc.) to improve feedback, it will cost in projection.

I think you should pursue a shorter horn, and perhaps a bent bell. I have done some loud club playing on pocket trumpets, and you can definitely hear yourself a lot better. I owned a Holton "Banana Horn" for a few years and don't remember that bent bell radically improving feedback, but that was a pretty minimal bend.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want either a beadless bell or a full French. If you want to hear it behind the bell a light weight Bronze would give insane player feedback behind the bell but your projection would drop a tad in front of the bell. Brace the snot out of the horn every place you can but leave the bracing in front of the third valve either off of very lightly as in CanonBall light or just Olds Ambassador valve assembly to bell and leadpipe light bracing. The lighter the bracing in front of the third valve with regard to bell to leadpipe the more the bell will vibrate and the more feed back you will get. This does hurt what you call audience feed back ie projection.

It is kind of like trading altitude for airspeed or energy......In order to get the bell to feedback to you the player you are going to give up some projection in front of the bell to gain projection behind the bell. It is a trade. To make up for this you want to make the receiver, leadpipe, outer tuning-slide, main tuning slide all as heavy and thick as you can make them. You want to anneal them. If you do not run bracing in front of the third valve I would brace the leadpipe and bell to each of the 3 valve assemblies with baluster braces. I would use a heavy ferule on the bell tail to 1st valve. Anyplace I could hide it I would use heavy bracing from solid flat or bar stock. This way you hold onto as much energy as you can in the rest of the horn so you can afford to waste it at the bell in front of the valves. The less you lose on the right side of the horn the more you can lose on the left side with out totally killing projection. If you started with a stock horn and just put a light weight bell on it and left the front bracing off you be lucky if they could hear you around the corner but it would give you tons of feed back behind the bell.

The more you can hear yourself behind the bell then on of two things is happening....Either the bell profile is such that it is very broad dispersion ie "not compact and focused" or you are giving up projection for feed back in the form of wasted energy. So their is no way you will ever get a 10 behind the bell and more then 7 in front of the bell......To get any more behind the bell you can lighten the valve assembly so you hands vibrate more or you can use a light weight MP and right side so that your lips and face get more feedback from the energy leaking out of the right side. Just no every increase in feedback will create an equal drop in projection.

A 72 bell is less compact especially in standard and light weight models then a comparable 37 bell. As such you get more sound behind you and all around you. So profile plays a role too.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have horns that are very similar, a couple with French beads, and a couple without... I have no reason to believe there's anything more than a theoretical, infinitesimal difference between them.

Tom
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.,

You need to play a Benge 5X in a big room someday. I can't imagine where all the sound is coming from, but it sure doesn't follow your equation. Compact it may not be, but loss of projection?? If I still had it, I'd challenge you to a duel. Choose your weapon!

While the 5 bell may not have the most character-filled timbre, it surely is capable of putting out sound in all directions with no week zones. Only the Wild Thing bell puts out more, in my experience, but it has slightly less feedback.

Ed Mann's Olds Super, or Recording (or whichever it is) is just about as strong on the feedback count, too.

It's not cut and dried. Bell profile is significant.

Brian
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, then there's the question: Who's getting the feedback?
If you want maximum projection, that's one thing, if you want to hear yourself, that may be another thing.

When I rebuilt a 3X Benge for myself, it was for maximum projection in a big band. A really loud big band. As it turns out, I like it for solos as well.
So context, i.e., where and what situations you play, is all-important.

Is it possible to do it in stages, whereby you can play it live and decide?
It would take a patient hornbuilder.
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cb3
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: ok Reply with quote

yourbrass wrote:
Yeah, then there's the question: Who's getting the feedback?
If you want maximum projection, that's one thing, if you want to hear yourself, that may be another thing.

When I rebuilt a 3X Benge for myself, it was for maximum projection in a big band. A really loud big band. As it turns out, I like it for solos as well.
So context, i.e., where and what situations you play, is all-important.

Is it possible to do it in stages, whereby you can play it live and decide?
It would take a patient hornbuilder.


I thought that was covered. It's player feedback.....ME. The building in stages thing won't work cause I'd have to send it back possibly multiple times which you know is expensive. That's why I will take the best ideas from this(or better yet, ask him to read this post). Thanks for your suggestion though.
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Martin Committee
Harrelson Summit
Bach Strad/Harrelson Conv.
Getzen Severinsen
Conn 8B (4-sale)
Martin Committee/Imperial (4-sale)
Olds Studio/(4-sale)
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha 231S Flugel
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