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Cadenza Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2009 Posts: 243
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Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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John Mock wrote: | Why not simply try out one of the good pocket trumpets out there? The ones with the full size bell. Having it so close to your face offers improved feedback. I have read on these forums that some players prefer them for loud venue situations where you can't hear yourself as well.
I'm saving to buy a pocket trumpet right now...it might be cool for the church settings I usually play in.
John |
My experience exactly with pocket trumpets. The feedback to the player is substantially greater than with a typical horn. I imagine one can invoke an approximation of the inverse square law to explain why this is so.
While a bit unconventional, a good pocket may well be worth a try unless a small-looking horn is out of the question for you. |
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Retlaw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 3263 Location: UK
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:52 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | Well, since you want maximum player feedback, this pic posted by someone else into another thread immediately sprung to mind.
If you have a custom builder willing to do whatever you want, this seems like the perfect way to go to achieve your goal. |
From your request we assume a hearing issue? Hearing loss or playing in extremely loud conditions...... either way it would seem that other aids to hearing would be cheaper and more effective......?
I would be very curious to hear what Andy Taylor or Jason Harrelson would have to say on this...if there is an answer they would have it.
In fairness...the above photograph does illustrate the point......this is the only way you can get a 10 in player feedback and 8 or less for the audience.
I can't see how you can get a louder sound from behind the bell than in front....having said that I always seem to hear horns best from behind when the bell is on the larger size and made from lighter material.
Walter _________________ "Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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Craig Swartz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:59 am Post subject: |
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I've alway thought a crystal bell would be neat so long as one took care of the horn...
Perhaps a built-in mic and a cord run back to you would help- you could easily experiment with this on a junker horn to gather feasibility, then have it incorporated into the design. It's just possible that its position along the length of the instrument could even enhance playability.
I'd also like to mention that in my experience, the room in which I perform also has a lot of affect on how well I can hear myself no matter which trumpet I'l playing, so in that regard if you feel the same, the mic would be the logical option. Of course you'll also need at least one ear bud or phones as well which will also add to what you are picking up, so long as you can hear the rest of the group. Good luck. |
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BrassEye Regular Member
Joined: 09 Sep 2011 Posts: 89
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Craig; a monitoring system really is the way to go, unless you will only ever be playing acoustically. If you're playing with a rock band or something you should be using monitoring anyway really, preferably moulded isolating in-ears, to give yourself some protection from the rest of the band. _________________ "If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now." |
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ALaschiver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2005 Posts: 639
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: RandyTX |
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Perfect |
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JDay Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Posts: 190
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Okay, here is my insanely stupid thought...
Have the bell custom formed so that the bell tail extends behind you and wraps around your neck almost like a sousaphone. That would put the bell flair somewhere near or even right by your head. Yeah, it would totally look like something out of Dr. Seuss... But it sounds like you are looking for something unique.. |
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Ed Lee Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Aug 2009 Posts: 2156 Location: Jackson NC 27845
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Anyone ever tried wiring a clip on mike into a Yamaha Silent Brass console (no mute) to a good set of earphones to get feedback while practicing? |
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nieuwguyski Heavyweight Member
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2349 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ed Lee wrote: | Anyone ever tried wiring a clip on mike into a Yamaha Silent Brass console (no mute) to a good set of earphones to get feedback while practicing? |
Well, not for practicing, but... Yamaha sells a cheap clip-on mic (the MC7) designed to work with the Silent Brass module. I've used the MC7 and the cheapest, smallest SB module (ST9) to power a set of in-ear monitors. It doesn't produce recording-studio-quality sound, but it's a nifty setup for deafening loud gigs. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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If it's feedback you are looking for, you don't need no stinking custom trumpet or snarfblat bell facing you! You just need one of THESE.
_________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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yourbrass Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011 Posts: 3638 Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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"NOT INTERESTED IN BUYING A PRODUCTION HORN"
Ok, so we've established that. You might consider having whatever trumpet that's built for you be in raw finish. That way, when you play it and think: "Gee, if only...", you can get it altered without the pain of a damaged lacquer or plated finish.
I don't know of any mindreaders out there. The only way it's really done is by trial and error; the player plays and the repairman builds. |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I'm getting a custom trumpet made for me very soon and I need some suggestions. The maker is open for anything so this will not offend him (I MAY reveal his info. at a later time). |
The whole premise is flawed, because:
1) You do not appear to be a trumpet designer, with knowledge of acoustical physics.
2) The builder is either someone who fits #1 and can solder, or someone who wants your money. Otherwise he'd just build you the horn.
3) You are asking for trumpet techs and/or people with the scientific knowledge, to give you the recipe for free.
There are trumpet designers that think outside the box. In fact, I think Flip Oakes has already built your horn. However, until you put a mouthpiece in and put your lips on it, it's a crapshoot . . . _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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RandyTX Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 Posts: 5299 Location: Central Texas
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Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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It's really getting eery how *every* thread, in *every* forum eventually turns into a Wild Thing advertisement, once the post count gets reasonably large.
_________________ "Music is like candy, you throw the (w)rappers away."
Last edited by RandyTX on Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
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You must have a lot of time on your hands to have researched that. I suspect it's all in your mind, though . . . _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
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tptfrbrains Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 1375 Location: Moers, Germany
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
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I'm not interested in any "wild threads" or abnormally high post counts, but if someone wants to do or make something really unique - one of a kind, apparently - why would they be interested in the input from those of us that frequent this forum?
It would seem to me that the OP and the trumpet-maker of his choice should have some pretty strong and definite ideas of their own.
Otherwise it just seems like a lot of smoke.
r. |
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cb3 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2006 Posts: 853 Location: LA
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:36 am Post subject: ok |
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tptfrbrains wrote: | I'm not interested in any "wild threads" or abnormally high post counts, but if someone wants to do or make something really unique - one of a kind, apparently - why would they be interested in the input from those of us that frequent this forum?
It would seem to me that the OP and the trumpet-maker of his choice should have some pretty strong and definite ideas of their own.
Otherwise it just seems like a lot of smoke.
r. |
Why? I'll tell you.....Because some of the people that come here are exactly what and have the knowledge I'm looking for. Some people(as evidenced here), are willing to give their knowledge for free thank you very much. The builder does have his own ideas but can't I have other options since again as indicated, I still have time before the build? Is that not allowed?
As I said, he's open for my suggestions as well so why not get ideas from a source of MY choice??
If you're not going to come here and answer what I've asked for, PLEASE take the negativity elsewhere. Thanks to those with the knowledge and good ideas. I will sort them out as best as I can and see what we come up with. _________________ Trumpets:
Martin Committee
Harrelson Summit
Bach Strad/Harrelson Conv.
Getzen Severinsen
Conn 8B (4-sale)
Martin Committee/Imperial (4-sale)
Olds Studio/(4-sale)
Flugelhorn:
Yamaha 231S Flugel |
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david mickley Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2009 Posts: 712 Location: Indianapolis, In.
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:05 am Post subject: |
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cb3 - I have a good friend and a great tech who once took a Shilke B1 and completely took the horn apart and then put it back together with very little tension in the horn at all. all the braces were re-bent and re-positioned when necessary to fit every piece with out putting any tension at all on the parts and he also did some other little things to the horn that he didn't share with me. That horn absolutely spoke and was the most responsive horn I ever played. It would have been great for a rock band or other "loud" venue. I really liked how it played but really didn't know where I could use such a horn. I think if you took a horn that is already a "bright" horn and removed all tension from the assembly you just might achieve what you are after. Good Luck _________________ Chicago Benge 33XX
Burbank Benge 5X 59XX
Yamaha Flugel 231
assorted other horns |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7013 Location: AZ
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:07 am Post subject: Re: ok |
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cb3 wrote: | tptfrbrains wrote: | I'm not interested in any "wild threads" or abnormally high post counts, but if someone wants to do or make something really unique - one of a kind, apparently - why would they be interested in the input from those of us that frequent this forum?
It would seem to me that the OP and the trumpet-maker of his choice should have some pretty strong and definite ideas of their own.
Otherwise it just seems like a lot of smoke.
r. |
Why? I'll tell you.....Because some of the people that come here are exactly what and have the knowledge I'm looking for. Some people(as evidenced here), are willing to give their knowledge for free thank you very much. The builder does have his own ideas but can't I have other options since again as indicated, I still have time before the build? Is that not allowed?
As I said, he's open for my suggestions as well so why not get ideas from a source of MY choice??
If you're not going to come here and answer what I've asked for, PLEASE take the negativity elsewhere. Thanks to those with the knowledge and good ideas. I will sort them out as best as I can and see what we come up with. |
What sort of timbre are you wanting? Feedback can be built in through, as one poster mentioned, tighter radii, lighter valve blocks, sparse bracing, large rim, choice of bell bead and so forth. Flip's Wild Thing and Celebration benefit from the bell rim being about 1-1/2" closer to the player than a traditionally wrapped trumpet.
As I mentioned in earlier posts, some bell profiles feed back better than others. One I didn't mention is the "new" Kanstul 1410 bell. It has a lighter timbre than, say, their E-bell, but it also has good feedback.
You probably should isolate what frequency range you need to be able to hear, in order to make the best decision. My hearing has been damaged over many years of construction, band rehearsals and such. Some frequencies are totally lost to me when I play, so I need to be able to hear others in order to know if I'm playing on pitch and in balance.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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leahcim Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2011 Posts: 123
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: |
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RandyTX wrote: | It's really getting eery how *every* thread, in *every* forum eventually turns into a Wild Thing advertisement, once the post count gets reasonably large.
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<Rant>
I haven't been on this forum for long but I have noticed the same thread behavior as well. On other forums, especially technology based, this is called "trolling" and the threads would be edited by moderators to stay on topic.
Don't get me wrong, Flip is a great guy and builds a horn that works for a certain type of player. But it is odd how a couple of posters have a "Flip Oakes" agenda for every thread.
</Rant>
Back on topic - as others have mentioned the best feedback is through some sort of monitoring system or plexi reflection. I play loud commercial gigs and generally do not have a dedicated monitor unless I slip the sound man a $20. The Sound Back acoustic monitor system works incredibly well and the price can't be beat!
If the feedback must come from the horn then I would suggest working with a knowledgable builder that can test different types and styles of rims and even bell profiles such as a shepherds crook.
Good luck! |
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Ed Kennedy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: |
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crzytptman wrote: | You must have a lot of time on your hands to have researched that. I suspect it's all in your mind, though . . . |
As the Great Yogi once said: "90% of it is half mental." |
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ChopsGone Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2008 Posts: 1793
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Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: |
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There seems to be lots of stuff getting into this thread that's based solely on one's perception, rather than experience. That sax-shaped DEG horn, for example: come on, it's a DEG, but it not only has unexcelled player feedback, the projection is also excellent. Play one before you diss it, OK?
And the Wild Thing: all right, I admit to owning three - short model cornet, flugelhorn, Bb trumpet. I don't know what "certain type of player" it takes to appreciate a Wild Thing, but I do, everyone I've let try my horns does, even my granddaughter does. And she's one of those very precise, soft-playing types. Sure, the design considered the requirements of outdoor large-venue playing without amplification, but it's also a very well-designed, flexible, controllable trumpet even if all you do is play for your own enjoyment in your man-cave. Again, play one before you start thinking there's some sort of Wild Thing conspiracy going on here.
And since there's an apparent lack of breadth in experienced horn variety, I'll echo the pocket trumpet suggestion (a large-bell CarolBrass is a good start, but if you've got the bucks to have a custom horn built, try a Benge or Kanstul as well). And then try specific models of horns which have very accurate feedback, which is more important than the sheer amount of sound coming back at the player. That would include the Wild Things, of course, but should also include some Calicchios (go for an R32 and a 1s/2 for starters), a Schilke or two (B-series, your choice). Then go back and try some of the finer vintage horns still available in good or restored condition - Olds Super, Recording, Super Recording, Symphony, Mendez, Custom Crafted, a good pre-Olds Reynolds or two, and definitely a handful of Parisian Selmers. Maybe an Aubertin for grins, to feel what a great trumpet can be while still being unique and recognizable. Yes, a few Conns, a Vocabell as well as some of the Coprion-belled models.
In other words, at the risk of getting into the CK-length category, experience some fine horns, study their designs, then find a builder who doesn't need to ask you how to address specific performance objectives. _________________ Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....
Last edited by ChopsGone on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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