Need your help on a design issue. Everyone...please read.

[crzytptman]

[cb3]

"A good, experienced trumpet designer and builder will know how to maximize certain qualities, and what the trade offs will be. The reason I mention Flip Oakes in this thread is he is a great example of a good, experienced trumpet designer who does think outside the box. His trumpets already do what the OP wants. The OP's builder should already have the knowledge of what design characteristics will affect certain performance aspects. Other designers who have figured out something to set their horns apart are not going to bust out with it here."


Here we go again, I recently asked nicely to only contribute with positive comments AND only to answer my specific questions. You don't know what other designers may offer. All you're doing is assuming. Let them and myself have a chance for them to offer advice if THEY want to( I got it..... YOU don't want them to). Please move on with the negativity or PM the people you want to go back and forth with. Don't do it on my thread, thank you.
The monitoring system won't work because one of the things I'll be doing is using it outside while moving around.

I really appreciate those with positive, helpful comments. I have a much better grasp on what I need now. Again, thanks

[leahcim]

[cb3]

[shofarguy]

I'm going to assume you are not typically amplified. If you are amplified, a set of molded ear bud monitors is the best answer. If you are not amplified AND you play outside AND you want to move around, then the following characteristics should be on your list:

1) Carrying power. This is different than simple projection. It has to do with timbre, projection, core density and probably some other things. Carrying power applies to the full dynamic range of the instrument.

2) A broad projection pattern. Broad sound patterns sound full to more people as the player moves around and changes the direction the bell is pointed.

3) Strong feedback that is an accurate representation of what the audience hears.

4) Strong Low frequency response. Lows give body to the sound, but they dissipate quickly over a short distance.

5) Strong high frequency response. High frequencies give definition to the horn's sound. A tubby, all-lows timbre will sound muddy at best and be lost to all but the first few rows of audience.

These characteristics reduce your choices quite a bit. The 1410 bell is too narrow a taper for an outdoor Bb sound, IMO. Calicchio 1S is probably not at its best either, especially if you are a soloist. I could be wrong, but the lack of low end could leave the sound thin and harsh.

You are best to focus on wide taper bells. The Benge 5X would work well here. Kanstul owns the mandrel. A 72 style bell might be appropriate. Most manufacturers build a version. The Kanstul 103 Colosseum is designed for situations similar to yours.

In the end, what you describe IS the exact set of requirements that gave birth to Flip Oakes' Wild Thing trumpet. I know of no equal for outdoor, un-amplified work. Your guy cannot build one, though.

Yes, I have also played in this sort of circumstance.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[ChopsGone]

I'll disagree very slightly with Brian on one point. The Calicchio 1s isn't lacking in low end, and it does offer excellent feedback. But when the need to move around a lot is added in, I'd agree with him: go for something with broad sound dispersal. In ready-made horns, the Wild Thing, the Calicchios with #3 bells, and several of the Marcinkiewicz Rembrandt series do this well; the Wild Thing beats the others mentioned in this one aspect.

All of those horns have very good feedback. I tend to like the accuracy of the Calicchio R32 in my own hands a bit more than the others, but they're all close and all excellent. The more you move around the stage, the more I'd lean toward the Wild Thing. With a Calicchio 1s bell, you experience the feeling that you're blowing a hole through the back wall. With a Wild Thing, it feels more like you're covering the entire wall with sound. The off-axis volume loss is a lot less with that design.

I've never tried a Kanstul 103, but do own the other horns I've mentioned.

Your builder, if he's any good, already knows enough about larger bells, thinner bells, tapering bell metal, the effects of bell rims, bell materials, the design of bell flares - I'd advise giving the builder a solid set of goals, ranked by importance, and seeing what he suggests. My own specs for something like this would be a horn with the bell as close to my ears as possible, a bell with a relatively abrupt final flare and a size of a minimum of 5", bell material either sterling silver or tapered red brass, a fairly long section of unbraced bell, lightweight construction in the leadpipe and tuning slide. But that's just me, and I'm happiest when I'm playing a Wild Thing short model cornet anyway. Good luck.
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[John Mock]

I'm not on here pushing any particular favorite horn or design concept, and I'm not trying to be negative. However, though there are some very talented and knowledgeable brass design experts frequenting these forums, I bet most of their suggestions would be general in nature--stuff your builder should already know.

As one who actually makes a living doing design engineering (not horns though) we designers never give anything away for free--the knowledge always comes with a price--because it costs each one of us an awful lot of money and time to acquire the engineering experience and professional licensure. All of the plans and reports in my field are required to be signed and sealed by a licensed professional (they directly affect public safety)--which then means that I can be sued by any alleged "victim" of my design.

So we give nothing away without a price--and even mundane details can be considered as "firm secrets" that are not to be shared with others outside the profession as it literally takes money off our dinner table if they are shared.

This is not intended to sound or read as if arrogant, but is merely the reality in which designers have to live.

That said, it seems there have been some very useful tidbits of information shared here, but I would read them carefully. I would not expect to be able to glean enough here to be able to order my own horn and have it be a better choice than one already designed and available.

John
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Kanstul 1500 trumpet
Kanstul 800-2
GR WB Classic and Studio M mouthpieces

[cheiden]

Probably not what the OP is after but..

We've all seen those plexiglass shields that get placed over a mic stand to provide some immediate acoustic feed back. Obviously this only helps if you're not moving around. I'm pretty sure I've seen a similar but smaller version that actually clips to the bell sorta' like a bucket mute. Without completely reinventing the horn I think this would be the easiest way to get more feedback without amplification.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[cb3]

[crzytptman]

[cb3]

[cheiden]

[nordlandstrompet]

Microphone mounted inside the bell flare.
With USB plug. (of course).
Battery operated amplifier.
Moulded ear plugs.

Plug and play
_________________
Nordlands
http://www.brassnor.no
CarolBrass Scandinavia
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Taylor
Chicago Custom X-VR
Chicago Gen III

CarolBrass
CTR-5200V-(D)-L
CCT-9392-GLS(D)
CCR-9990-RSM-SLB
CPT-3000-GLS
CPT-1000 mini

[cb3]

[Dan O'Donnell]

I can only offer my experience regarding horn design and player feedback...

I have found that there is LESS player feedback on horns that have the following design...

Heavy Bracing on the Tuning Slide - (ala Harrelson's 909 Mod. which I own and replaced the heavy braced tuning slide with a stock slide in order to get more player feedback which was VERY effective)

Larger Bell Diameters - I find the larger bell diameter the less feedback I get as a player.

Heavy Walled Bells & Heavy Bead on Bells - I find horns with this design also provides less feedback to me the player.

Simply put...if I were in your shoes having a custom horn designed with the main purpose of getting a lot of player feedback, I would have a horn designed exactly the opposite of what I described above meaning...

No oversized, heavy walled and beaded bells...No heavy bracing on the tuning slide.

I hope this helps!
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God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[cb3]

[Dan O'Donnell]

On a side note...When I explained the changing of the tuning slide to the stock slide for better player feedback, Jason was 100% in agreement with the change in order for me to get the feedback I needed when playing with a Big Band that played very loud.
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[65strad]

cb3, I can speak from personal experience that having an absolutely custom made hand built horn exactly to my specs by a major manufacturer was, and still is an incredible experience. My hope was that the horn would respond the way I had envisioned it but my expectations were modest; after all I had a zero financial stake in it, and what the hell, Bach custom fabricated it for me, and that is in and of itself is pretty insane to begin with. Lets be honest, I would have been very selfish to have expected anything more.

I can certainly understand your desire to want to make the right decision to gain the desired result. That being said, the "ideal" aural result is an elusive objective even for the most accomplished player or builders. Experimentation with various bell materials, gauge thickness and material type (brass/nickel etc), leadpipe venturi... is a complex assemblage of critical tolerences with a multitude of variables to consider.

Our opinions ultimately will be of little value to you in the quest to realize your criteria in a horn. Although many suggestions here are valid, your ears (regarding player feedback in particular) will be the ultimate judge. Your aspirations are valid for your personal goal, however they are also subjective because not everyone has the same standards for the same terms, i.e., dark, bright, warm, complex, compact, spread.

We are all individual's and that in itself is a real challenge regarding having a custom (non production) horn built that will approach your expectations. I am a lucky SOB. I paid nothing for mine, I won it. It does exceed my expectations in it's playability and build quality BUT my expectations were modest because again, I didn't have a monetary investment.

Lightning struck several times for me on all of my "dream" trumpet expectations, and although they do indeed happen, dreams regarding getting that perfect horn rarely come true even after a safari, let alone paying substantial money for a custom horn thats a one shot deal that may or may not fall somewhat short of the ideal. Your goals seem very specific. I don't want to be negative, but if you do take the plunge on something "non production", please enjoy the process, embrace the result, and let the horn work for you. Please keep us posted when it happens. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that is interested in hearing about your exciting project.
_________________
Tom
'08 Bach factory custom "one off" 43*G SN#2008
'65 Bach 181 37 SN#30836
'67 Bach 180 37 SN#39773
'70 Bach 181 37 SN#58831
'72 Bach 180S 43 SN#70503
'05 Bach VBS 196 Picc SN#560142
'07 Bach Chicago C SN#656602

[A_Ason]

With this horn I have a long bell with full sound, and I can clearly her myself. Built by Lars Gerdt.

[Brian Moon]

Don't play Mahler or Strauss on that horn. Tinnitis will be right around the corner.
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Either is fine. My chops always feel great

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