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Old Rookie
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 Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:51 am Post subject: A novice theroy question |
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Hello All,
Wikipedia describes an Alto saxophone transposition as follows: | Quote: | | The alto saxophone is an Eb transposing instrument and reads the treble clef. A written C-natural sounds as the concert Eb a major sixth lower. |
Why not as an Minor 3rd raised or it really doesn't matter?
Thx
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:03 am Post subject: |
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A minor 3rd higher is a higher note.
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ChasB
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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The reason is because most instruments transpose down into concert pitch from written pitch (with some exceptions). In trumpet terms, a Bb trumpet sounds Bb when a written C is played, a major second lower than the written pitch. An Eb trumpet will sound a minor third up from that written C because it is smaller than the C trumpet which plays at concert pitch. Now, if there was such thing as a C soprano saxophone (the trumpet is a soprano instrument), it would sound at concert pitch. Since the Eb Alto is larger than a C soprano would be, it transposes down a major sixth. There is such thing as the Eb sopranino saxophone that sounds a minor third up from written pitch.
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Old Rookie
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Okay,
Thanks for those insightful responses. I'm processing that information, but here is where I'm headed. If a solo is written for a Alto sax (Eb) in common time in the key of 'C' and I want play it on my trumpet (Bb). Do I play in a major 4th down? ex...F-Eb-F-Gb transposes to C-Ab-C-Db????
Thx
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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An alto saxophone part played on B flat trumpet should be transposed down a perfect fifth.
Think of it this way: If you write the note your instrument gets when it plays written third-space C, and then write the note the instrument the part's written for gets when it plays the same note, the interval and direction between those two notes is the interval and direction you need to transpose.
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veery715
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Old Rookie wrote: | Okay,
Thanks for those insightful responses. I'm processing that information, but here is where I'm headed. If a solo is written for a Alto sax (Eb) in common time in the key of 'C' and I want play it on my trumpet (Bb). Do I play in a major 4th down? ex...F-Eb-F-Gb transposes to C-Ab-C-Db????
Thx |
No, it's down a perfect 5th.
But you can go up a 4th or down a 5th as it suits you. If the sax part is written at the top of the staff and above it may make sense and be easier to take it down a 5th than up a 4th.
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Old Rookie
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Okay,
That helps alot!
Thank you All!
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Old Rookie
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Then the correct answer is: F-C-F-Gb transposes to C-Bb-C-Db.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | here is where I'm headed. If a solo is written for a Alto sax (Eb) in common time in the key of 'C' and I want play it on my trumpet (Bb). |
Read it as bass clef and add 3 flats to the key signature.
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Rookie wrote: | | Then the correct answer is: F-C-F-Gb transposes to C-Bb-C-Db. |
If what you have printed in the alto sax part is F-C-F-Gb, then what you play on B flat trumpet is Bb-F-Bb-Cb.
| crzytptman wrote: | | Read it as bass clef and add 3 flats to the key signature. |
I think you're misreading what he's asking. Bass clef, add three flats works for playing E flat parts on a C trumpet. He's asking about B flat trumpet.
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Old Rookie
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Why is this now confusing to me? F to C is a Fifth? What am I missing?
verry715 wrote:
No, it's down a perfect 5th.
Old Rookie wrote:
Then the correct answer is: F-C-F-Gb transposes to C-Bb-C-Db.
Nonsense Eliminator wrote:
If what you have printed in the alto sax part is F-C-F-Gb, then what you play on B flat trumpet is Bb-F-Bb-Cb.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think you're misreading what he's asking. Bass clef, add three flats works for playing E flat parts on a C trumpet. He's asking about B flat trumpet. |
No, I'm not. Bass clef Eb is 3rd position on trombone, which corresponds to 1st valve on BBb tuba, 1st valve on Euphonium, and 1st valve on trumpet. I don't know what you are doing with a C trumpet.
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Old Rookie
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Guys,
I think I got it now or at least I have a better understanding.
Thx to all!
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | Quote: | | I think you're misreading what he's asking. Bass clef, add three flats works for playing E flat parts on a C trumpet. He's asking about B flat trumpet. |
No, I'm not. Bass clef Eb is 3rd position on trombone, which corresponds to 1st valve on BBb tuba, 1st valve on Euphonium, and 1st valve on trumpet. I don't know what you are doing with a C trumpet. |
You are looking this in a manner which is not typical of how most trumpet players do this.
The first space in the treble clef is F. The first space in the bass clef is A. Bass clef, add three flats... F becomes A flat, which is up a minor third, which is E flat trumpet on C trumpet. Any book you care to look at which teaches transposition by clef will indicate that up a third is bass clef.
What you are doing is not merely reading the part in bass clef; you are reading the part in the bass clef and applying the fingerings that non-transposing bass clef instruments use. I suppose that might be perfectly reasonable if you also play a non-transposing bass clef instrument and explain that that's what you're doing, but otherwise it's confusing at best.
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Crazy Finn
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | No, I'm not. Bass clef Eb is 3rd position on trombone, which corresponds to 1st valve on BBb tuba, 1st valve on Euphonium, and 1st valve on trumpet. I don't know what you are doing with a C trumpet. |
| Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | | You are looking this in a manner which is not typical of how most trumpet players do this. |
That's because many trumpet players don't know how to play other brasses.
I can and do, and also read it this way. Why add unnecessary transposition?
Of course, if you can't play a bass clef brass instrument - then it doesn't help.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't play in an orchestra. In the kind of work I do, I may have to read a lead sheet (concert pitch), an alto sax part, trombone part - all on trumpet. Or, I may have to cover a tenor sax part, bari sax part, alto sax part, or read off a trumpet part or lead sheet - on trombone.
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BJones
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Wow. Let's make this as complicated as possible! 
Keep it easy... Horn in the hand to the horn on the page.
If the horn on the page is Eb, and the horn in your hand is Bb, you are either going to go down a fifth (which you would do for alto saxophone) or you would go up a fourth (Eb trumpet).
The reason you go transpose down when looking at an alto part is that the alto's sounding pitch is written lower than the written pitch.
Keep it easy!
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Way easier for me to just read it bass clef, but I do like your suggestion to go down a fifth . . . 
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Nonsense Eliminator
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | No, I'm not. Bass clef Eb is 3rd position on trombone, which corresponds to 1st valve on BBb tuba, 1st valve on Euphonium, and 1st valve on trumpet. I don't know what you are doing with a C trumpet. |
| Nonsense Eliminator wrote: | | You are looking this in a manner which is not typical of how most trumpet players do this. |
That's because many trumpet players don't know how to play other brasses.
I can and do, and also read it this way. Why add unnecessary transposition?
Of course, if you can't play a bass clef brass instrument - then it doesn't help. |
It really doesn't matter what method you use for transposing, as long as it works for you. The point is that if you try to explain your method to somebody else, saying "read it as bass clef" has a particular meaning (i.e., read the music as if the clef were replaced) which is two semitones lower than "read it as if you are playing a bass clef euphonium part." Transpose however you want, but if you want people to understand what you are talking about, don't describe this method as "read it as bass clef."
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Old Rookie
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| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
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As the OP, this is what I take away from this discussion. If I read an 'F" for an Alto part (Eb) and I am playing my Bb trumpet. I play either a 5th down which is a 'Bb' or 4th up which is also a 'Bb'
| Quote: | No, it's down a perfect 5th.
But you can go up a 4th or down a 5th as it suits you. If the sax part is written at the top of the staff and above it may make sense and be easier to take it down a 5th than up a 4th. |
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