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abundrefo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2008 Posts: 913 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:26 pm Post subject: Yamaha 14B4-GP vs. 14F4-GP rim |
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Hello,
It's been a while since the Schilke 14B rim is my favorite (and most versatile) rim. But I don't like Schilke's 14B cup, just the rim. That's why I don't usually play the Schilke 14B but a custom mouthpiece from Curry instead, with a 14B rim.
About an year ago, I purchased a Yamaha 14F4-GP mouthpiece that suits my 635ST flugel like magic. And the 14F4-GP rim feels so close to the 14B...
So I thought that someday I'd like to try a 14B4-GP on my trumpet, because maybe I'd get the same rim I have on my flugel mouthpiece.
After thinking about that for a while, I decided to give the 14B4-GP trumpet mouthpiece a shot.
It's a great mouthpiece but the rim feels incredibly different than its flugel counterpart. The bite is so sharp... Nothing to do with the rim on the flugel mouthpiece or the 14B.
Will the standard Yamaha 14B4 mouthpiece have this same rim? ...or is it different somehow?
Thanks. |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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As I recall the standard Yamaha 14B4 trumpet mouthpiece and Yamaha 14F4 flugel mouthpiece rims are identical or at least very similar. I never had any issue transitioning when I played them regularly. And neither feels at all sharp. I've not spent enough time with any of the GP-series to offer a comparison.
I've since moved on to using a Bach 3C rim on a Bach 1.5C underpart for trumpet because I feel it has a richer sound. I still use the Yamaha 14F4 on the flugel which I like well enough. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:08 am Post subject: |
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Hi abundrefo
My understanding is that the Yamaha 14B4 is similar to a smaller variant Bach 3C (smaller than mine anyhow lol).
I am not familiar with the Schilke 14B, but the Kanstul comparator shows the Schilke 14B rim as being on the same lines as a Bach 3C.
My experience is that Bach 3C mouthpieces vary in how sharp the bite is, with the cornet versions being overall sharper than the trumpet ones. Personally, I've taken my favourite one (with a bite somewhere in the middle I suppose) and had the cup end scanned by Jim New at Kanstul, and various versions made, one-piece cornet, modular tops for use on trumpet and cornet etc.
I used to briefly use a Yamaha 14B4 when demonstrating Yamaha trumpets when I previously worked in a music store, and if my memory serves me correctly, it had a little sharper bite than my particular 3C. I have never tried a Yamaha 14F4, having only owned a Bach flugel.
I believe that Yamaha mouthpieces are pretty consistent, and that all standard 14B4 trumpet mouthpieces would be pretty much the same. I would have thought that the 14B4-GP would be the same as the standard 14B4, but I have never played a 14B4-GP.
Take Care
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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hackney_wick Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2012 Posts: 312 Location: Gone away
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Delete
Last edited by hackney_wick on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:56 am Post subject: |
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hackney_wick wrote: | I'm surprised to hear the Yamaha 14B4 rim described as sharp. It seems to me to be relatively comfortable, distinct profile but no sharp edges, suitable for playing for hours on end.
Hi
You are probably referring to the OP's opening post, but I just would like to clarify that although I described the bite of the 14B4 as being probably sharper than that of my favourite Bach 3C, I don't consider it to be particularly sharp.
All the best
Lou
The three versions of the 14B4 (standard, gold, sterling silver) are all comfortable but all feel different on the face. They all sound different as well. To me, the standard has the 'warmest' sound - it is the lightest in weight, of course. |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: |
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hackney_wick wrote: | I'm surprised to hear the Yamaha 14B4 rim described as sharp. It seems to me to be relatively comfortable, distinct profile but no sharp edges, suitable for playing for hours on end.
The three versions of the 14B4 (standard, gold, sterling silver) are all comfortable but all feel different on the face. They all sound different as well. To me, the standard has the 'warmest' sound - it is the lightest in weight, of course. |
I believe that OP indicated that he found the GP-series Yamaha 14B4 to be sharper than the Yamaha 14F4 flugel. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
Last edited by cheiden on Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hackney_wick Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Jun 2012 Posts: 312 Location: Gone away
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Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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Delete
Last edited by hackney_wick on Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EBjazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2368 Location: SF Bay Area
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abundrefo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2008 Posts: 913 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | hackney_wick wrote: | I'm surprised to hear the Yamaha 14B4 rim described as sharp. It seems to me to be relatively comfortable, distinct profile but no sharp edges, suitable for playing for hours on end.
The three versions of the 14B4 (standard, gold, sterling silver) are all comfortable but all feel different on the face. They all sound different as well. To me, the standard has the 'warmest' sound - it is the lightest in weight, of course. |
I believe that OP indicated that he found the GP-series Yamaha 14B4 to be sharper than the Yamaha 14B4 flugel. |
Yes. Correct.
But... I think what's happening is the transition between rim an cup is just smoother on the flugel mouthpiece. Maybe, on the trumpet mouthpiece, there is a tiny undercut just under the bite (because of the cup shape) that makes it feel sharper. At least that's what I feel with my lips. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I believe that OP indicated that he found the GP-series Yamaha 14B4 to be sharper than the Yamaha 14B4 flugel. |
abundrefo wrote: | Yes. Correct.
But... I think what's happening is the transition between rim an cup is just smoother on the flugel mouthpiece. Maybe, on the trumpet mouthpiece, there is a tiny undercut just under the bite (because of the cup shape) that makes it feel sharper. At least that's what I feel with my lips. |
To be clear, there is no 14B4 flugel mouthpiece. There's a 14F4.
It's the Schilke numbering system. The 14 is the diameter. The letter - B or F, is the depth of the cup with a higher letter being deeper. The 4 is the rim contour, so theoretically, the rim contours are the same between the two. In the Schilke system, the 4 rim is kind of flat - like on the 14A4a. I'm not sure how identical the Yamaha 4 rim is, it seems more 3Cish to me.
However, the rim doesn't exist by itself. There's the cup also. The difference between a standard depth trumpet cup- like a B - and a deep flugel cup - like the F - is fairly significant. It's possible that the rim can feel different when paired with different cups. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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EBjazz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2368 Location: SF Bay Area
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Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yes. The Yamaha's use the Schilke nomenclature, but all the components are different. A Schilke 4 rim is flat and the Yamaha 4 is much rounder. Notice that most of the Yamaha models have their 4 rim. I like the Yam 14C4, however I wish it did have a bit more rim.
Eb _________________ Eric Bolvin
http://bolvinmusic.com/product/the-modern-jazz-trumpet-method/
www.bolvinmusic.com |
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delano Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 3118 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:53 am Post subject: |
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Today I dug out my 14B4-GP trumpet mp and my 14F4 (not GP) flugelpiece to give it a try. And though the rims of both mp's look quite the same (and I tried to measure them with a calipers and they seem to be the same size and the same form) they do feel different. And indeed the 14B4-GP rim felt a little bit sharper. But IMO the differences are not that big.
The 14B4 still feels comfortable.
I don't play the 14B4GP very much so I was quite fresh in the feeling. The 14F4 I use one a Pre-WW1 Dutch-Belgium Verreijt cornet that for some reason has a weird receiver. |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:09 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | In the Schilke system, the 4 rim is kind of flat - like on the 14A4a. I'm not sure how identical the Yamaha 4 rim is, it seems more 3Cish to me. |
Whilst we're nitpicking, it's probably worth noting that there's no such thing as "the 4 rim" in the Schilke line - like Bach, a seemingly sensible/specific labelling system hides all kinds of surprises.
There are models designated to be 4 rims (semi-flat) but almost all of them are noticeably different profiles (the only two I know of that are the same are the 16c4 and 16b4).
Can't say I've used enough Yamaha's to be confident of saying whether they apply the same (Schilke) labelling conventions in a more consistent manner, but it would be surprising if they didn't.
Still, veering back on-topic - as others have said, the cup shape and undercut (and/or alpha, choose your poison) can make the same rim "feel" different.
I guess it's an argument against assuming that matching rims will yield consistency - even if they're physically identical profiles, if they interact with the chops differently then it's not really any different from using different rims altogether, is it? |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | To be clear, there is no 14B4 flugel mouthpiece. There's a 14F4. |
I knew that. My mistake. I've corrected my original entry
Quote: | It's the Schilke numbering system. The 14 is the diameter. The letter - B or F, is the depth of the cup with a higher letter being deeper. The 4 is the rim contour, so theoretically, the rim contours are the same between the two. In the Schilke system, the 4 rim is kind of flat - like on the 14A4a. I'm not sure how identical the Yamaha 4 rim is, it seems more 3Cish to me.
However, the rim doesn't exist by itself. There's the cup also. The difference between a standard depth trumpet cup- like a B - and a deep flugel cup - like the F - is fairly significant. It's possible that the rim can feel different when paired with different cups. |
Beyond the rim and cup which is relatively well documents, there's also the undercut or alpha angle. This is the section just below what's perceived as the bite. The GR website has the most information on this area of the mouthpiece. This can make a big difference in how a piece feels and plays. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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abundrefo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2008 Posts: 913 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:30 am Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | Beyond the rim and cup which is relatively well documents, there's also the undercut or alpha angle. This is the section just below what's perceived as the bite. The GR website has the most information on this area of the mouthpiece. This can make a big difference in how a piece feels and plays. |
One quick question regarding GR/alpha angle:
In what way high and low alpha angle usually is perceived as a softer or sharper feel?
e.g.:
Low = sharp(er)?
High = soft(er)? |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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High alpha angles like is typical of the Schilke xA4a pieces are usually perceived as softer and smaller, and the more gentle slope into the cup can make for lip binding and the feeling of bottoming out. A low alpha angle like the Bach 7C can contribute to the perceived sharpness.
I've found these links useful.
http://www.grmouthpieces.com/alpha-angle.html
http://users.actrix.co.nz/mcamilleri/MpAlpha.htm _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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abundrefo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Jan 2008 Posts: 913 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you!!! |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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The 7c isn't THAT low an alpha is it?
I'd have picked something more like the 1c or 2c for that example... a lot of people complain about those two being very sharp rims - I don't find them overly sharp, but there's definitely a feeling that the chops are unsupported (vs a 3c for example).
I wonder if it's not actually the low alpha itself that determines the perceived sharpness...
I mean - if low alpha = unsupported feel... then that could lead to added pressure... and added pressure can make almost any rim feel sharp? |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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I did see in the GR links I posted that there are steeper alpha angles than the 7C but I didn't think any of them were common enough to use as a point of reference.
And it's not always easy but I try to separate bite from alpha angle. As I understand it, the bite is the smallest radius just below the rim and the alpha angle is the slope leading away from that point. Together they create how the piece feels on the lips.
For me I find that too little bite and my lips tend to slip and that leads to excess pressure. Too much bite just plain old hurts and harpoons endurance.
Too high an alpha angle and my lips feel too held in place and I end up with reduced endurance and a double buzz. I'm less certain about too low an alpha angle as I haven't had a problem that I've traced to that. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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TKSop Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Feb 2014 Posts: 1735 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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cheiden wrote: | I did see in the GR links I posted that there are steeper alpha angles than the 7C but I didn't think any of them were common enough to use as a point of reference.
And it's not always easy but I try to separate bite from alpha angle. As I understand it, the bite is the smallest radius just below the rim and the alpha angle is the slope leading away from that point. Together they create how the piece feels on the lips.
For me I find that too little bite and my lips tend to slip and that leads to excess pressure. Too much bite just plain old hurts and harpoons endurance.
Too high an alpha angle and my lips feel too held in place and I end up with reduced endurance and a double buzz. I'm less certain about too low an alpha angle as I haven't had a problem that I've traced to that. |
I'm with you - there's definitely a difference between a high alpha and a sharp bite
I just wonder whether if (in certain cases) a low alpha can wind up leading some players to substitute pressure for the unsupported feeling and as a result feel the bite more than is really present? |
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