Kid's teacher says to play C# with third valve

Riojazz

I had a junior high trumpeter in my Easter service ensemble. He sounded fine, but I noticed he played C# on the staff with the third valve, not one & two.

Does this teacher know something I don't? Obviously it is a legitimate alternate fingering, but is this being recommended as the preferred fingering by anyone else out there?
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Matt Finley
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Kanstul 1525 flugel, Calicchio 1s/9, Shires C, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 pic, Yamaha soprano, Powell flute, Emerson alto flute, Mark VI tenor. Warburton 4FL & GR66M.

Jetrang · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Nov 2008 Posts: 276

maybe the kid is playing on a horn with tuning issues and the C# slots better on 3 than 12 ?

cheiden · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject:

I've never heard or seen instruction to use 3rd valve for 3rd space C#. For my gear I'd be suprised if it didn't tune and/or sound worse though I've never really considered it. 1st ledger line is another story and sometimes I find it useful to use 3rd, depending on the context.
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crzytptman · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject:

That's a round about way to deal with a horn that needs a valve alignment, and probably has bore obstructions. That's assuming that the horn is a well designed instrument.
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chrisf3000 · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Jul 2004 Posts: 185

cheiden · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:06 am Post subject:

I remember that in my youth when I "discovered" the overtone series and all of the potential alternate fingering that I very specifically set about practicing using every single one of them and just assumed that I should be able to use them interchangably and that pitch and tone would eventually come around.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb
Yamaha 731 Flugel
Kanstul 920 Picc
Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim/Bach 1-1/2C underpart

jackboyko · Regular Member Joined: 08 Jan 2006 Posts: 53

If the teacher or student is a Monette facebook fan, they show that playing C# with the 3rd valve is more in tune. In fact it is on Monette horns.
On my other trumpets, I have many, 1 & 2 are more in tune.
Maybe the teacher or student are playing Monette trumpets.

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 3963

Ed Lee · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:52 am Post subject:

Matthew Anklan · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:53 am Post subject:

Perhaps the student misunderstood the teacher about alternate fingering options, or something of the like.
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maynard-46

Hi Matt!!! Funny...I just had a 6th grade student for a private lesson this past Wed. I was working with him to extend his range above middle "C". He bursts out telling me he already knew how to play 4th line "D" so I told him to go ahead and play it for me. He went ahead and played it but fingered it 1-3 like low "D". I told him it sounded great but to use the 1st valve only...that it's not fingered like the low "D". He tells me that his band teacher (who I think is a clarinet player) told him to finger it 1-3 because (1) it's more in tune and (2) because it has a better tone quailty!!!!! I had all I could do not to laugh!!! So, not wanting to make a negative comment about what his teacher had told him, I simply told him that different teachers have different ways/methods of teaching but I'd prefer that he finger it the way I told him to!!! I guess even after 50 years of playing we still can learn something new each day!!!

Hope all is going well for you, Matt!!

Butch

Butch

cheiden · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:12 am Post subject:

oxleyk · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: Re: C#

Riojazz · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject:

Thanks, everyone! Very helpful.

So, I take it from all of you who teach trumpet (I don't) that there is not a trumpet fingering chart out there that specifies third valve for C#, that became a standard sometime after 1958 when I last looked at one.

I regularly use the third valve on my flugel, but only that horn. I also don't want to offend his music teacher, but I believe the student when he says that his teacher is not a trumpet player and indeed did teach him to use third valve for middle C# in all circumstances. I would like to hear him try a nice trill from C# to D and watch what happens after a few bars. (try it)

No, he doesn't play a Monette.

Yes, he is a great kid, smart and an outstanding musician on piano. I was glad to have him playing the lower parts for the Easter service. He has learned to sound acceptable on his C#s, nevertheless I think I should tell him that what he is doing is unconventional, and tell him his teacher is welcome to discuss it with me.

Hi Butch!
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Kanstul 1525 flugel, Calicchio 1s/9, Shires C, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 pic, Yamaha soprano, Powell flute, Emerson alto flute, Mark VI tenor. Warburton 4FL & GR66M.

kehaulani · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject:

Shiner · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject:

It really makes it hard for me to defend band directors when so many out there are so clueless. I sometimes, very rarely, will ask a brass player to use an alternate fingering on something, usually baritone(most of the tuning problems in my band). But I do have some trumpets right now on a g top of staff playing alternates in my 3rd band. I am not a woodwind player, yet I managed to learn most of the fingerings and tuning issues on every instrument. Who are these idiots that are so clueless, do they just not care about learning what they do?

kehaulani · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:48 pm Post subject:

VetPsychWars · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject:

Riojazz · Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:35 pm Post subject:

I don't have the trumpet now to try, and that's a good suggestion that I could have taken time to check it myself. However, it was a rushed rehearsal before the Easter service and I had just met this student; it might have been condescending if the local pro insisted on trying his horn when I'm not his teacher. I was very careful not to make a big deal out of it.

The student simply said all the trumpets in his school were told to play C# with the third finger, and he did not know about using 1&2. I assume all their various trumpets can't be 'out' the same way. And I further assume the student's next step-up trumpets are not likely to play as well using this alternate fingering.

Please, let's take it easy on this teacher since I don't have all the facts. All I was asking was, is this the normal fingering now, and the clear answer is No. Thank you all for your help.
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Matt Finley
www.mattfinley.com
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mattfinley

Kanstul 1525 flugel, Calicchio 1s/9, Shires C, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schilke P5-4 pic, Yamaha soprano, Powell flute, Emerson alto flute, Mark VI tenor. Warburton 4FL & GR66M.