Inconsistant conductors

brassbow · Veteran Member Joined: 05 Aug 2005 Posts: 381

So how does everyone deal with a conductor that has an inconsistant beat pattern, or changes his phrasing at odd moments?
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trumpetera · Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:05 pm Post subject:

Look at the concertmasters bow, not the conductor!

It's trickier if it's a windband. Then look att the principal clarinet-at least you'll see where the accents are. That's when he/ she levitates 10 cm above the chair!
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Fuzzy Dunlop · Veteran Member Joined: 25 Jun 2011 Posts: 196

In addition to what trumpetera said I would say to keep your ears wide open to everyone else around you. Hopefully most of the ensemble is able to ignore whatever sort of nonsense is happening on the podium and just play together.

In my experience, a lot of the mistakes that occur in an ensemble are often the result of conductor error. It can be tough, but I really strive to not let *ahem* unpredictable conductors throw off my entrances. In the past I've let myself get a bit too trusting of the baton and then one goofy cue leads to a nice spleeeaaah. Sure, the orchestra knows why it happened but everyone in the audience just hears the trumpet f***ing up. So, yeah...gotta make it happen even when the maestro ain't happening.

I imagine the guys that play in real top tier orchestras/operas are masters at this...and even then some conductors probably still manage to screw them up once in a while.

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 863

Mason Jones, famous first horn with the Philly orchestra apparently said, " Never look at the conductor. He doesn't know what he is doing." No truer words have ever been spoken.

When you really know how the piece goes (listen to it a number of times and get a score), you won't need to depend on the conductor. There will be spots where you will want to look up, but when he starts to make movements that confuse you, then you will want to turn your ears on, and your eyes off. You might give him the benefit of the doubt and try to understand his movements, but when you realize that it is impossible, then that is when you have to be listening to your colleagues extra hard. When you follow the music with your EARS, it is actually much more precise than trying to follow a conductor with your eyes, since you tend to stop listening when you are concentrating visually. Good luck!

rockford · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:05 am Post subject:

I love it when conductors screw up. Helps keep them at bay for at least a couple days.

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Brian Moon · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:51 am Post subject:

- Never watch the conductor; he doesn't know what he is doing -

Mason Jones

circa 1975
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Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3832

You guys are on the wrong path. Here's what you do.

Follow his every move, jerk, twitch, and pulse, no matter what. Never let the slightest conducting movement go un-played. Do that and it will drive them nuts.

Larry

Mikeytrpt · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:38 am Post subject:

But what about when he picks his nose?
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Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3832

Jerry · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:58 am Post subject:

About 15 years ago during one period when our community orchestra was searching for a new conductor, we had a different conductor for each of our five concerts that year. One conductor would admonish us several times during rehearsals to stop watching him. He wanted us to listen to each other instead. We sounded quite good during his concert.

During rehearsals, the conductor of the concert band I currently play in sometimes walks off the podium while we're playing to walk around the band to listen to different sections. He'll comment in surprise that we're more together than when he's conducting. (And he is not an inconsistent conductor.)

Larry Smithee · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 3832

Andy Del · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject:

You can't have everything. Want a nice clear beat pattern that is inexorably consistent? You get boring music - Brahms shouldn't sound like a Sousa march.

You want a musical conductor? You'll get everything from a very clear beat pattern to no beat at all and just the odd gesture. But YOU need to count, to know your parts and be in the right place.

As a trumpet player who conducts, or vice-versa, I've played with conductors who were disorganised, unable to say what they want, and just full of great musical ideas. Others were clear as glass and boring as bat poo. And loads in between. It's up to the players to make something of the music, and part of this is to react to the conductor who may just be trying to get you to do just what you are, through their gestures, as annoying or otherwise they may be!

As a conductor, I really hate having to beat every beat, keep my pattern crystal clear, but it depends on the musicians you are working with! Some NEED to be given the beat, others can be left to count and one can try to shape the music more, even (amazingly) react to the players' musicality and create something that is new, fresh and exciting.

So at school, you usually get all the beats. (I do admit to making them play with no conducting quite often, seeing as I'm mean and try to make them become better musicians) My community orchestra usually gets a pretty clear and reliable beat, until they need something else, like wafty stuff (to MAKE them count) or shaping of phrases (still working on that counting though).

Rarely you get a real 'wrench' of a conductor. NOW you can play exactly what they show. I can only remember this twice, and the comments after one of these guys performances was, 'what the **** was wrong with the brass?' My reply was to ask the strings, they know what we were told to do, and how he gestured all through the performance. 9It's one thing to be a bit hard of hearing, another to use this to abuse the players and tell them they are all weak and uncaring... in Tchaik #4!!!)

Ah, the other time: I sent a sub I thought deserved to be thrown in the deep end. My my, the icy cold ales tasted good that evening!

There are times when the conductor makes an a$$ of themselves. Treat it like playing a clam, keep going with your eye on the road ahead, not behind. Most conductors do.

cheers

Andy

* of course, you all know this belongs in your tool kit, hence it is a...
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kehaulani · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject:

Olinhannum · Regular Member Joined: 02 Nov 2011 Posts: 21

Nonsense Eliminator · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:58 pm Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject:

StupidBrassObsession · Veteran Member Joined: 25 Mar 2012 Posts: 342

A good friend of mine plays percussion professionally in heaps of different Orchestras around Australia and overseas...

MichaelM2 · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:16 am Post subject:

One group I play with is a college/community band and the conductor is old and bordering on senility. He loves to conduct and the more complex the time signatures the better he likes it, only he frequently gets lost and doesn't change with the time signatures. Invariably this is when the trumpets aren't playing and the woodwinds all get lost and indecisivly guess their way along until trumpets come in and 'say' this is where we are. Right or wrong it gives everyone, including the conductor a point where they can figure out where they are. The trumpet section isn't necessarily better than the rest of the group but just being trumpet players we're pushy by nature. Usually having the melody and being able to drown out the woodwinds doesn't hurt either.

Mike

Brian Moon · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:45 am Post subject:

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 863

It is important to know who you are dealing with when regarding conductors. While I believe that it is better to listen than to look, not all conductors agree with me. One conductor that has been mentioned in this discussion demands to be looked at at certain spots in a work. You will need to have that spot memorized, since not looking would simply get you in trouble, unless you have a strong union there to protect you. After playing through your little spot, somebody else will be looked at, and you can go back to the comfort of reading your part. Be ready for the next moment, since you will need to know when it comes (don't take your eye completely off of the conductor until you know where your "full attention" is required). After the first reading, you will know when to stare into the conductor's maniacal eyes.
Chances are, it will be an important part for your instrument.

So in this case, you've got to look up and have your part memorized. It isn't normal, but it is something that you have to deal with. KNOW THY CONDUCTOR before you ignore him!