Tuning Problem: Mouthpiece Solution?

[stomlerach]

I've got a mt. Vernon Bach 165 Flugelhorn that plays flat even with the tuning slide all the way in. I know this model and body style has not survived and intonation issues may have played a part in that.

Natural selection aside, I really like the sound of this horn and would love to be able to use it more. I was thinking my choice in mouthpiece might make a difference; I play on a VB 1 1/4 FL. I also welcome an other none mouthpiece solutions.

Thanks in advance.
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"I like to play" - garth

Selmer Radial II Bb
Stomvi 330 ML Bb
Eclipse C
Bach 165 Flugel Mt. Vernon

[etc-etc]

In cornets, a deeper cup and a wider throat are compensated by a shorter shank, and trumpet tops are usually put on longer shanks. With the same shank and backbore, a shallower cup and possibly a bit tighter throat might raise the pitch just enough to help you out with a flat sounding instrument.

[royjohn]

Questions:

How flat is the horn, overall? Is it just consistently flat or are there some notes that are further out than others? What mouthpiece taper does it take? Are you sure you have the right matching taper on the mpc you're using? Do other players have exactly the same problem you do with the horn? Have you tried other mpcs than the one you specify in your post, and, if so, how did they work?

If the horn is uniformly flat, a mpc that goes further into the receiver could make it a little sharper.

With a $12 tuner, you can perform an experiment that will tell you something. Play the horn and note how many cents flat it is, on average. Just over an octave or so of the middle range, for starters. If it's 15 cents flat, pull the tuning slide or leadpipe until it's 30 cents flat. Measure how far you've pulled the slide. This is approximately how much shorter your horn needs to be to play in tune. It is not that big a deal to shorten a horn to play in tune, but you need to be sure there is not some other reason it is flat. A consult with a horn tweaker or good repair tech is a good idea, if you like the horn. New flugel = $500+ (up to $2500 and more!) Tweak of current, loved flugel = $100 (est.). Satisfaction of having what you want and getting it cheap = priceless!

HTH!
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[roynj]

+1 to Royjohn's answer above. Also, I would add that a mouthpiece adjustment will not likely fix the intonation, and will just add to your frustration. Take the horn into a shop and have the adjustment made to the tubing of the horn itself.

[Dale Proctor]

[stomlerach]

Thanks for all the responses.

Both mouthpieces that I have tried are bachs so I assumed that they are bach taper. Is that necessarily the case? While the intonation is a little funky, it is not impossible to deal with if I play it with some frequency. The real problem is that the whole range of the horn is a tiny bit flat. I will go check out cornet mouthpieces as that seems like the cheapest, easiest solution; provided I can find one that I like.

If that doesn't do the trick does anyone have a tech/repairman suggestion for Southern California? Preferably near LA.

Thanks again.
_________________
"I like to play" - garth

Selmer Radial II Bb
Stomvi 330 ML Bb
Eclipse C
Bach 165 Flugel Mt. Vernon

[tootnbuzz]

Robb Stewart is your man for this project. He is in Arcadia near Los Angeles.

Robbstewart.com

[lyndon153]

Options: find the right MP or shorten the main tuning slide.

I have a Berkley Music Pocket Trumpet (C/Bb) that played consistently flat with the slides all the way in. I tried DW4, Bach 7 trumpet MP's. I also tried cornet MP's : GR66c, DW4, DW4b . The DW4b was the best, but it was too short - the tuning slide was into my chin, so I had to play the horn sideways.

So I was considering having the slides shortened, but eventually tried a Bach 3 trumpet MP. That seems to have done the trick. And the horn sounds great - much better than with any of the other MP's. Luckily, I already had the MP on hand...

--Lyndon
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1995 Getzen Eterna 850S Bb cornet, .464" bore, MP:GR66#6, Wicks#4
1975 Bach Strad Model 37 ML Bb Trumpet, MP:GR66m
20?? Berkley Music C/Bb Pocket Trumpet, MP:Bach3c
1918 Henri Gautier "Virtuso" Bb cornet, MP:Bach 3c
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[shofarguy]

I'm biased, okay. Here is my recommendation based on what I have experienced over the past three years:

Call Flip Oakes on the phone. Tell him the challenges you are facing. Listen to his opinions and recommendation. If he suggests that you bring the horn to his shop, do so.

Flip has been a trumpet player for over 50 years. He has also owned his own instrument (not just brass) repair business for decades at different locations and times and has a reputation for giving excellent results. He has worked with Kanstul (at least) as a development player and is at least partially responsible for some of their most highly regarded models. He is the designer of his own line of instruments and mouthpieces, which are among the most treasured in the world.

He is dead-on honest. He will tell you the truth as he sees it. By the way, Flip is not a salesman. He will tell you, but he won't sell you.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.