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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: Harrelson Bravura vs Carol Brass 8880 (with sound clips) |
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I though I'd provide some specifics, pics, and short sound clips; and hope this will be useful for someone.
I am an amateur comeback player 11 years into my comeback after a 20+ yr layoff. When I came back I started almost at zero. I have played several horns as I have developed over the last few years. My main playing is lead in a community jazz band and the sharing the lead book during for the Broadway musicals my local community theater performs each summer.
About 18 months ago Jason Harrelson built me a Bravura that fits me nearly perfectly. It's bell is very similar to a Bach 72 and the leadpipe's resistance feels like it is in between a Bach 25 and a Bach 43.
I decided I wanted a backup trumpet as I didn't have one. Long story short I wound up with a Carol Brass CTR-8880L-GLT-Bb-L. Except for the valve cluster, this horn is all gold brass. It has a larger taper, lightweight bell (Bach 72*ish), and a "fast taper" leadpipe with a reversed tuning slide.
I installed the heavy tops that came with the horn and am using the square tuning slide. I also added a set of Harrelson heavy valve caps. The valve cluster between the two horns look identical. Not only do the valve caps, top caps, and finger buttons interchange, the Bravura valves will fit in the 8880 and play fine--though I can't get the 8880s valves to smoothly go into the Bravura. The valve alignment on the 8880--as seen with removal of the second valve slide--looks perfect. Compression is tight all around and even the lacquer job looks good.
The blow on the 8880 is slightly more open than with my Bravura, and because it has a lighter weight bell (.016 vs .021) the 8880 sizzles sooner and has a broader sound. I think the Bravura is very slightly better in tune with itself, but that could just be because I am more used to it. However, I need to have the tuning slide on the Bravura pulled out at least 1/4" more than on the 8880. I tend to push sharp above the staff with the Bravura if I am not careful, but I have no such issues with the 8880. Also, when a play a F, G ,or A above High C on the 8880, it is in tune where with the Bravura it's probably going to be sharp.
I have attached three You Tube videos. In each case I play the Bravura first, then I play the same thing on the 8880. I set the music to a picture I took of both horns, and the title changes when I change horns. I recorded the Bravua clips about a month ago, and I recorded the 8880 clips right after I got the 8880 about two and a half weeks ago. Everything is recorded on a Zoom H2 in my garage.
Please try not to hold my playing against either horn. Also, I was pretty tired when I recoded the Embraceable You lick on the 8880, and you can hear it.
Annie: http://youtu.be/ZBl7j8nrP94
Three Octave G Arpeggio: http://youtu.be/XNRk1dfmJKs
Embraceable You: http://youtu.be/u9ILmA0O5iE _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting and fair comparison! Nice sound on both horns!
From the sound recordings, in your hands the 8880 in the high register has a more elegant and refined (but less bombastic / in-your-face) sound. Intonation seems to be nicer on Bravura. Low G is hard to play in volume and in-tune anyway (it is always flat, isn't it). |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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I'd rather hear you on the Bravura. I'm listening on high quality speakers, but it's based exactly 0 on tone, and solely on intonation. It sounds like upstairs is a little easier for you on the Carol, so I will say you're fighting the Bravura, instead of letting it do the work for you. Wish I knew of a better way to put that, but "finding the balance" can be done at extreme soft volume making sure there's no strain. (Maybe reading some of Derek Rabean's stuff might help you dial in that approach?)
This makes me really curious how these 2 horns gap. I'm assuming you played both with the same mouthpiece? |
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mbradd Veteran Member
Joined: 07 May 2011 Posts: 385 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:26 am Post subject: Re: Harrelson Bravura vs Carol Brass 8880 (with sound clips) |
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afp wrote: | The valve cluster between the two horns look identical. Not only do the valve caps, top caps, and finger buttons interchange, the Bravura valves will fit in the 8880 and play fine--though I can't get the 8880s valves to smoothly go into the Bravura. |
Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but does that mean that Harrelson is using Carol valve blocks?
And BTW: you sound good on both horns. Sounds like the Carol works better for you, but I prefer the sound of the Bravura. _________________ Adams A4 Shepherds Crook Bb
1970's Bach 37 Bb
1970's Getzen Flugel |
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shofarguy Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 7016 Location: AZ
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Just from what you've written, the receiver gap on your Harrelson could be a touch too large. Adjusting it may bring your pitch in the upper range down where it should be and make it easier to play.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. |
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chuck in ny Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 3607 Location: New York
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: |
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guess i like the bravura sound a bit better. heavier bell likely the difference.
..chuck |
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fredo Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 589 Location: France
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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So now the Bravura is your backup horn ? _________________ Frederic FELTZ
Yamaha XENO 2 8335 S
Lotus 3L brass |
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laurent Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Sep 2009 Posts: 897 Location: Barcelona (Spain)
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:33 am Post subject: |
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For me the attacks are cleaner on the Carol than on the Bravura, and the intonation is better as well.
The sound of the Carol is clear, precise and quite expressive, noticeably more than the sound of the Bravura which is slightly deeper though.
That being said, on the third video the Bravura sounds a little better to my ears.
Just a question: why do you want to play "Embraceable you" so high? If I were I I would choose another tune, "I'm gonna fly now" for example, which is much more appropriate for high notes! _________________
Bb Trumpets: Courtois Évolution IV, Stomvi Forte,
Buescher T-120, HT3.
Mpcs: Monette B2s3, Kanstul M-B2.
Flugel: H.Bagué (Yam 631 clone in red brass).
Mpcs: Curry FL & FLD. |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Well my intent was to try to give a side by side comparison of the horns, but you guys have given me outstanding feedback--thanks! You guys have confirmed what my local teacher (30+ year pro) has been saying. I was getting rather disheartened with my Bravura from the player side of the horn.
A couple things you can't hear on the sound clips. There is more player feedback with the Carol, and that is because of its lightweight bell. The sound is very broad and the other players in the section can better hear me, though I think the Carol would be obnoxious in the pit.
The Bravura is a much more focused. I demonstrated this to my wife. I had her stand 15 feet away and close her eyes. I started with the Bravura and pointed 45 degrees to her right, then straight at her, then 45 degrees to her left. She could clearly tell when the horn was pointed at her. I repeated that with the Carol, and she couldn't tell where the horn was pointed.
etc-etc: I must admit I am lazy below the staff. I rarely have to perform those notes so I don't work on them much. I mainly use them as the top anchor note when I play pedals.
Raze: I think I am a little better now intonation wise on the Carol since I have been playing for a couple weeks now. It will go flat if I under support it a little, where the Bravura has more secure slots. then again, that could be because I am more used to the Bravura. I do think I am fighting the Bravura in that I am still over blowing it. The whole idea behind the Bravura and other heavy horns is efficiency, but that comes at reduced feedback to the player. I still need to learn to back off with it.
raze and Brian: I used the same MP for both horns. Dr Dave makes interchangeable shanks to adjust the gap. After playing around a bit I settled on the standard shank for both horns, which was .120 in the Bravura. I had been playing .060 with the Bravura and perhaps I should go back to that. I didn't measure for the Carol, I just played what felt best. When my new MP (for the Carol) arrives--a slightly shallower version of what I am playing now--I'll check out gap again with both horns. BTW, I can't find anything on Derek Rabean. Do you have a link?
mbradd: I think the Harrelson used a Carol Brass valve block, but I am not sure. The Carol valve block is awesome. The are stainless steel valves and are as fast and trouble free as Getzen valves.
chuck and fredo: There are places where I like the Bravura sound better as well. My plan is to use the Carol for lead in jazz band and the Bravura for the pit. The Bravura sounds okay for lead, but it really would be better if it sizzled at a lower volume level. The Bravura needs to be full throttle to have the proper lead trumpet sound, and that is not really how it ought to be played. Regardless, either horn can be used for anything I play, it's just each one has its place. If I had the money, I'd probably have Harrelson built me a Summit lead trumpet.
laurent: Part of the problem you are hearing is I am very new to recording myself, and the Zoom H2 exposes everything. A typical recording session for me is a chop buster and goes like this.........
I play the lick, and do okay, but after listening to it I want a better recording. So I play it again, much better, but I clam something. I play it again and either clam something, sound weak, too loud, etc. Repeat. repeat. I then rest for too short a period of time and try it again. And again. And again. By this time High G is starting to get a little difficult, and that is what you heard on Embraceable You with the Carol.
The original purpose of the upper range Embraceable You lick was to learn to play melodically up there. It isn't too difficult to uncork a big, full High G at the end of a piece, but to play in that range melodically (Maynard called it "romantically") is much harder. On days where I focus on upper range, after I get all the mechanics working right (my visualizations of air, tongue arch, etc.); I play the Embraceable You lick as melodically as I can. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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dmb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 1305 Location: Anderson, IN
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for puting up the comparison vids.
All things considered, I liked the Carol better. _________________ Dan Burton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWuX9zPJWyY
-----------------------------------------------
Olds |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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I writing this before I read anyone post's so I am influenced by my peers on my initial thoughts. I will listen again after I read their comments and might add more.
My thoughts:
Harrelson-sounds like it has his 3 bell. Which is very similar to a Bach 72 bell so I like the over all sound. It sounds like you are more comfortable on this horn. It sounds as if it is easier for you to play like the slotting is more secure. It never sounded like you where working hard on it or forcing anything. It was a tad less brilliant and a tad darker then typical 72 bell Bach or CarolBrass.
CarolBrass-Sounds like a Bach 72 bell 43 pipe combo in gold brass which is to say fantastic. I liked the sounds a bit better then the Harrelson because it had most of the dark sound and color but still had some brilliance. I think this is a leadpipe difference and lighter weight bell construction thing more then anything else. It did sound like slotting was less secure on this. At times their was a little raspiness(prob. not the best word) in the upper register that was not present on the Harrelson which I think is a matter of feeling like one has to force it or push it onto the slot. I do not see this as a player issue rather an issue with the gear not being quite as good of a fit.
They have a very similar sound with mostly the level of brilliance being the main difference between the two. Both sound like fantastic horns! From the bell side I liked the CarolBrass sound better but hard to say which one I would like best behind the bell.
Thanks so much for posting the audio that was a really cool comparison head to head!
Sound wise which one do you like best? I know you like the way the Harrelson plays best.
I just read your opening post. I did not want details until I listened and wrote the above. Nailed the 72 bell, nailed the gold brass, and light weight bell. Now is the Harrelson the 3 bell or did I fluff that and guess wrong? _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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Dan O'Donnell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 2287
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Blaine,
Nice playing!...
To MY ear...there were (3) obvious differences for ME...
Annie - The Bravura had just a slightly richer tone quality. (Note: When the piece is slurred more and tongued less, it takes on a much more melodic feel.)
Three Octave G Arpeggio - The lower notes sounded significantly out of tune on the Carol. Have you tried those notes against an electronic tuner?
Embraceable You - The high notes sounded much thinner on the Carol than the Bravura. It was as if you were pinching them versus the way they "sang" on the Bravura.
As you know, I too play a Bravura (#1 Leadpipe and #3 Bell) however, I let me ears do the listening, I had no benefit choosing either horn and listened to the pieces several times in order to confirm that I was not biased all in order to provide you with a fair assessment.
Just my $0.02 _________________ God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell
"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3 |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I went back and listened again now that I have more time. I still think you sound more secure on the Bravura but on "Embraceable" I could really hear the effect of over blowing. It is creating a pinched sort of sound. I also have my headphones on now so the higher fidelity might account for this difference I hear now.
I definitely think the Carol has a much more lyrical and musical sound. It just seems more alive. Sure the sound is thinner and less fleshy but it also has a lighter bell and lighter construction so that is almost a given. I think the Carol has tones of color and that is something that if you do not have nothing will fix.
I think that the leadpipe and receiver on the Harrrelson needs to be checked. I have no idea what a Harrelson 6 pipe is like but I suspect it is not the best leadpipe for that bell. I suspect that either the leadpipe or receiver is what is causing you problems. Carol puts a large pipe with their 72 bell it is close to a 43 pipe. They insist it gives the best intonation with that bell.
You get 12 months on the Harrelson and then if you are not happy you can get a different bell or leadpipe if I recall properly? If you think you can live with the CarolBrass blow then maybe you need to consider having Jason put one of his more open pipes on. Maybe a 1 pipe?
This is why I am not a fan of leadpipe being used to control resistance.It is my last resort. I much prefer to use the tuning slide and the mouthpiece to create the feel I want. I want the best overall compromise I can find in my leadpipe to bell match. If the horn is too out of tune or back's up on me then it is not a horn I want to try to make work if it can be helped. _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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I made some new recordings tonight. I appreciate you guys listening to all this, it has really helped me define how I'll use each horn. I don't know if these new clips will change anyone's opinions, but I have had two and half more weeks with the CB 8880 than I did with the first recordings.
And thanks to raze and Brian's gap suggestions, I measured the gap of each horn. The Brvura's receiver is .060" longer than the CB 8880. So I put the "less gap" shank in the Bravura and the standard gap shank in the Carol. They both play their best this way and lessening the gap in the Bravura did help the upper range to be more in tune. At present, the Bravura has a gap of .075 and the Carol a Gap of .085. Realize this is with using a caliper and a pen to mark the shank, and while I know I have the relationship right, the actual gap may be slightly more or less than what I measured.
1. Embraceable You. This is the old Bravura clip with a new CB 8880 clip. I was fairly fresh for both (yes, there were many takes) and this is as good as I can play it right now. I did noticeably pull the top of staff G in the middle of the lick flat with the CB 8880, and that is probably because that is such a sharp note on the Bravura that I have developed the habit of opening up as much as I can on that note. I don't need to do that on the CB 8880.
http://youtu.be/oJtv2KhfYaw
2. The second lead trumpet solo from Brass Machine.
http://youtu.be/Mz9tADBmTz8
3. The beginning solo to Gospel John. I apologize for the uninspired playing but I was awfully tired with both horns. The first time I played this solo with the CB 8880, the entire sax section turned around to make sure it was me that was playing. They really liked the tone.
http://youtu.be/hK54bNePsoA
4. The end of Gospel John.......at least how I plan to end it.
http://youtu.be/CLbFrtZeIfU
Now to the questions.
Capt: The Bravrua has the #6 LP and #3 Bell (Bach 72ish). The Bravura is at the tight end of my comfort zone and the 8880 is at the open end. I am already 6 months past my warranty period with the Bravura. When I had it made it was the perfect amount of resistance. Since this Jan, I have had a dramatic increase in range and endurance--I added a third to my useable range and tripled my endurance. This has tipped the balance for me in favor of a slightly more open blow.
Dan: The Carol is more open than the Bravura, and I am just not used to it. I need to remember to lip up the low notes. Of course, I don't plan to play the Carol much for low register stuff. The Bravura does that much better. _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6209
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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On Carol, your attacks sound cleaner (esp. in the number 4). On Bravura, there is some residual imperfection. |
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Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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I wanted to add that I think people are starting to see why I am a fan of gold brass. My favorite trumpet of all times was a Bach Strad 72 in heavy gold brass. I have no idea what ladpipe it had. IT had a similar feel to my 7 pipe equipped Bach Mercedes so I am guessing it was not a 25 pipe. I often recommend the Getzen 3051 with it's heavy gold brass bell in .462 bore and a reversed leadpipe. Why? I think it is the best domestic horn money can buy from a large OEM!
I think gold brass is the way to go because you can still blend in a section and if you light weight you still get good feedback behind the bell.
If we look at the BRavura like a heavy weight gold brass Bach 180/72 with 6-25 pipe and the CarolBRass as a light weight gold brss Bach 180/72-43 with 43 pipe you can see why I like light weight gold brass or bronze 72 bells. You can replace most of what you would do on a Bach 37 and gain so much more color and projection for a small price in less compact sound. _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! |
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Retlaw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 3263 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Blaine..to my ears on good speakers there is absolutely no question the Bravura sounds better. The sound is clear, rich, even and so smooth. I have chosen to ignore any playing difficulties to give the Carol a chance but no way would I choose the Carol over the Bravura.
Sorry but I don't think the Carol is even close....but I can see why you would choose it for lead...it has that piercing sound.
Nice playing by the way...
Walter _________________ "Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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Irving Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1892
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I vote for the Carol. The sound is clearer and cleaner than the Bravura. |
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Retlaw Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 3263 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Amazing how we hear things differently .....
Walter _________________ "Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Irving wrote: | I vote for the Carol. The sound is clearer and cleaner than the Bravura. |
I tend to agree... perhaps he sounds better on the bravura, but plays better on the carol... there IS something about the bravura I like. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill) |
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