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jhatpro
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Location: Chicago area
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 Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: Overcoming Old Habits |
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My biggest hurdle as a comeback player has been to overcome the sloppy habits I developed as a younger player: thinking noodling around was practicing, not paying attention to either time or intonation, assuming the only path to the upper register was to blow like crazy, and a host of other death moves (as Jim McClean calls all the things golfers do wrong).
Fortunately, I'm making a lot of progress thanks to a great teacher and the fact that, now that I'm retired, I can finally focus fully on doing the right things. But, boy, those old habits are so hard to break and the most frustrating thing is they can rear their head so quickly, especially in public performance.
I'm thinking about printing a card for my stand that reads: count, breathe, compress, play.
I could go on but I'm overdo for my second practice session of the morning!
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Jim Hatfield
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"Unfortunately, music is not my first language." |
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JRoyal
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Compress???
That is tension, a bad habit. |
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richardwy
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Overcoming Old Habits |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | Fortunately, I'm making a lot of progress thanks to a great teacher and the fact that, now that I'm retired, I can finally focus fully on doing the right things. |
In the same boat. Have given up on the silly dreams, but very much want to put a great sound out there each time I play. Studying with someone great, well, is great. I'm doing it to. But still work. No retirement for me. 
Kudos on your improvement.
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Troy Sargent
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Joined: 13 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | Compress???
That is tension, a bad habit. |
That's not really true. Look at masterclasses from Wayne Bergeron, Maynard, and even many classical players and they will all point towards compression. However, the wedge breath is the way that it is normally expressed. |
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JRoyal
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 748
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Troy Sargent wrote: | | JRoyal wrote: | Compress???
That is tension, a bad habit. |
That's not really true. Look at masterclasses from Wayne Bergeron, Maynard, and even many classical players and they will all point towards compression. However, the wedge breath is the way that it is normally expressed. |
Maybe if you are playing well above the staff, like those guys, it could be of help.
I do not know of anyone else that uses this technique, it is not as common as it is portrayed on this website, and certainly is not standard practice for normal playing.
You say classical players use this, can you name one of them? |
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EdMann
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:59 am Post subject: |
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If I may make a Herseth-esque suggestion: your practice should be as much like a performance as you can imagine, key word: imagine. My experience coming back has shown me that I'm a better player in rehearsal/performance than at home. That can lead to a whole ecosystem of problems. Play it like you mean it.
ed |
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | Compress???
That is tension, a bad habit. |
I think there is more than one way to interpret the term "compression". The first is to juxtapose "compression" with "pressure". [Disclaimer: I'm using these terms VERY loosely and not making any claims about the actual physics] If one struggles with using too much arm pressure and blowing like mad then it may be helpful to try to instead focus on the tongue and/or lips to create "compression". The other way this could make sense is that some people don't use great air support and their attacks are weak and the intonation sometime scoops up to the pitch. Insuring that there is already adequate air "compression" before realeasing the air by the tongue/lips can help this. In neither of these interpretations do I assume that undue tension need be employed.
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poochie
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Location: New Jersey,so what!
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. Cichowicz once said to me " don't break old habits, make new ones!". |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Compression is what Greg Spence calls it and that's good enough for me. Furthermore, a certain amount of tension is necessary to form an embouchure although too much can certainly inhibit performance.
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Jim Hatfield
Glen Ellyn, Illinois
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Another thought: practicing as though you are performing is a worthy goal but I don't believe it's possible to simulate a performance without at least one other person listening. You can sit next to the furnace and imagine you're on stage but without an audience it's not even close to being the same, at least for me.
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Jim Hatfield
Glen Ellyn, Illinois
"Unfortunately, music is not my first language." |
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JRoyal
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | Compression is what Greg Spence calls it and that's good enough for me. Furthermore, a certain amount of tension is necessary to form an embouchure although too much can certainly inhibit performance. |
Well, If you are convinced you need to "compress", because some internet video told you so, then chances are you are always going to have more tension than you need. Good luck with breaking the bad habits that come along with that..... |
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lh
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnTmBjk-M0c
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geezer
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | | jhatpro wrote: | | Compression is what Greg Spence calls it and that's good enough for me. Furthermore, a certain amount of tension is necessary to form an embouchure although too much can certainly inhibit performance. |
Well, If you are convinced you need to "compress", because some internet video told you so, then chances are you are always going to have more tension than you need. Good luck with breaking the bad habits that come along with that..... |
I am having great trouble understanding how any trumpet player can claim that compression is inherently unneccessary and bad.
Muscles in the torso must push upward to form air compression.
Muscles around the mouth must compress to form an embouchure.
The mouthpiece must be pressed against the embouchure enough to form a good air seal.
The best trumpet players in the world develop a muscle donut embouchure because of the exercise that the embouchure experiences in creating compression.
Without compression, a player would be unable to play above a tuning C.
When a trumpet player claims that compression is inherently bad, I am stunned.
Too much tension is bad.
But too little tension is just as bad.
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| geezer wrote: | | JRoyal wrote: | | jhatpro wrote: | | Compression is what Greg Spence calls it and that's good enough for me. Furthermore, a certain amount of tension is necessary to form an embouchure although too much can certainly inhibit performance. |
Well, If you are convinced you need to "compress", because some internet video told you so, then chances are you are always going to have more tension than you need. Good luck with breaking the bad habits that come along with that..... |
I am having great trouble understanding how any trumpet player can claim that compression is inherently unneccessary and bad.
Muscles in the torso must push upward to form air compression.
Muscles around the mouth must compress to form an embouchure.
The mouthpiece must be pressed against the embouchure enough to form a good air seal.
The best trumpet players in the world develop a muscle donut embouchure because of the exercise that the embouchure experiences in creating compression.
Without compression, a player would be unable to play above a tuning C.
When a trumpet player claims that compression is inherently bad, I am stunned.
Too much tension is bad.
But too little tension is just as bad. |
Does anyone think of compression before the cough or sneeze?
During such an aciton the average person can produce around 300-400cm of pressure on the air we hold without trying or thinking, we need about 100cm for the highest and loudest notes we play. Further,we can produce around 30cm with just the elasticity of the lungs themselves with no extra tension added.
Obviously the body tightens in various ways while we play to make up the difference. My beef is this idea of consciously setting a predetermined tension. To set tension prior to playing will inhibit flow, which is the source of vibration. The body is quite capable of regulating our air flow on its own with out us consciously manipulating on top of that, plus the human body does not have the capacity to judge that by feel anyway.
So again, I think it is quite odd for a person to make a special note from themselves to add tension in a post about breaking bad habits....but if all his playing is above a high C and it works for him great. |
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jhatpro
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, but time's up. Anyone wishing to argue either for or against compression will have to pay for another five minutes.
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Jim Hatfield
Glen Ellyn, Illinois
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geezer
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JRoyal wrote: | | geezer wrote: | | JRoyal wrote: | | jhatpro wrote: | | Compression is what Greg Spence calls it and that's good enough for me. Furthermore, a certain amount of tension is necessary to form an embouchure although too much can certainly inhibit performance. |
Well, If you are convinced you need to "compress", because some internet video told you so, then chances are you are always going to have more tension than you need. Good luck with breaking the bad habits that come along with that..... |
I am having great trouble understanding how any trumpet player can claim that compression is inherently unneccessary and bad.
Muscles in the torso must push upward to form air compression.
Muscles around the mouth must compress to form an embouchure.
The mouthpiece must be pressed against the embouchure enough to form a good air seal.
The best trumpet players in the world develop a muscle donut embouchure because of the exercise that the embouchure experiences in creating compression.
Without compression, a player would be unable to play above a tuning C.
When a trumpet player claims that compression is inherently bad, I am stunned.
Too much tension is bad.
But too little tension is just as bad. |
Does anyone think of compression before the cough or sneeze?
During such an aciton the average person can produce around 300-400cm of pressure on the air we hold without trying or thinking, we need about 100cm for the highest and loudest notes we play. Further,we can produce around 30cm with just the elasticity of the lungs themselves with no extra tension added.
Obviously the body tightens in various ways while we play to make up the difference. My beef is this idea of consciously setting a predetermined tension. To set tension prior to playing will inhibit flow, which is the source of vibration. The body is quite capable of regulating our air flow on its own with out us consciously manipulating on top of that, plus the human body does not have the capacity to judge that by feel anyway.
So again, I think it is quite odd for a person to make a special note from themselves to add tension in a post about breaking bad habits....but if all his playing is above a high C and it works for him great. |
If one passage requires that you come in on a Low C,
another passage requires that you come in on a 2nd-line G,
then another passage requires that you come in on a 4th-space E,
then another passage requires that you come in on an A above the staff,
how do you accomplish that differentiation and come in on the right note?
If every muscle in your body remains relaxed to eactly the same degree for all those notes, then how do you accomplish coming in on the right different notes?
As for your comparing trumpet playing to coughing and sneezing,
that is just plain silly.
Coughing and sneezing do not require carefully-controlled air output for long passages at carefully-controlled varying sound levels and carefully-controlled frequencies.
"Does anyone think of compression before the cough or sneeze?"
If he's goes to cough or sneeze the Brandenburg Concerto then he'd better.
But I'm not going to debate the matter further.
Believe what you want.
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oxleyk
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | | I'm sorry, but time's up. Anyone wishing to argue either for or against compression will have to pay for another five minutes. |
That was never five minutes! |
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JRoyal
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| geezer wrote: | If one passage requires that you come in on a Low C,
another passage requires that you come in on a 2nd-line G,
then another passage requires that you come in on a 4th-space E,
then another passage requires that you come in on an A above the staff,
how do you accomplish that differentiation and come in on the right note?
If every muscle in your body remains relaxed to eactly the same degree for all those notes, then how do you accomplish coming in on the right different notes? |
This is what I said:
| Quote: | | Obviously the body tightens in various ways while we play to make up the difference. My beef is this idea of consciously setting a predetermined tension. To set tension prior to playing will inhibit flow, which is the source of vibration. The body is quite capable of regulating our air flow on its own with out us consciously manipulating on top of that, plus the human body does not have the capacity to judge that by feel anyway. |
Your statement is that I am claiming that no tension or compression is needed, and that is pretty far from what I actually said.
| geezer wrote: | As for your comparing trumpet playing to coughing and sneezing,
that is just plain silly.
Coughing and sneezing do not require carefully-controlled air output for long passages at carefully-controlled varying sound levels and carefully-controlled frequencies.
"Does anyone think of compression before the cough or sneeze?"
If he's goes to cough or sneeze the Brandenburg Concerto then he'd better. |
Again, what I actually said was:
| Quote: | | During such an action the average person can produce around 300-400cm of pressure on the air we hold without trying or thinking, we need about 100cm for the highest and loudest notes we play. Further, we can produce around 30cm with just the elasticity of the lungs themselves with no extra tension added. |
Also, pretty far off from what I stated:
I clearly stated that not adding any tension will result in around 30cm’s worth of natural ‘pressure’. The point was that we do not need to think or try to get that full 300-400 from our body, it can do that without us thinking about it.
Please, if you are going to try to debate read and understand what I wrote.
Last edited by JRoyal on Fri May 18, 2012 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jhatpro
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Joined: 17 Mar 2002
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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“”It is possible to play a double high C on a trumpet with a close setting and compression only.” Pops McLaughlin
“The higher in the register one play, the less air one need. What is needed is a strong compression of the air.” Jerome Callet
“By learning to control the variance of tension, either isometric for holding a compression level or by tightening and relaxing the degrees of tension based upon what you are playing, one discovers that it is really the abdominal support that controls the air.” Bobby Shew
There are a lot more, similar quotes out there but I have to go work on my compression.
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Jim Hatfield
Glen Ellyn, Illinois
"Unfortunately, music is not my first language." |
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jhatpro wrote: | “”It is possible to play a double high C on a trumpet with a close setting and compression only.” Pops McLaughlin
“The higher in the register one play, the less air one need. What is needed is a strong compression of the air.” Jerome Callet
“By learning to control the variance of tension, either isometric for holding a compression level or by tightening and relaxing the degrees of tension based upon what you are playing, one discovers that it is really the abdominal support that controls the air.” Bobby Shew
There are a lot more, similar quotes out there but I have to go work on my compression. |
sigh....
They are specialized people playing in a specialized register with a specialized technique. You guys are presenting this as it is main stream. |
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