2nd buzz/rattling in upper register

Kohlgraf · New Member Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Posts: 8

Right around the E on the top line in the staff and up, sometimes I will get this rattling or some weird sound. I THINK its my lower lip is creating a 2nd buzz (maybe?) I'm not exactly sure and its hard to explain, but I'm wondering if this will just go away with more and more practice.

I have an Arban book and Clarke Studies, I also (from my jazz teacher) a Bop Duet book that I play out of, including another few pages from another book I actually found on these forums: www.carminecaruso.net I also purchased and have been using a PETE for roughly 2 months now, and I'm up to 35-40 seconds on both of the exercises it provides.

I'm not sure what it is, but it's been happening for about a year now, as I approach even higher, High C and above, the "2nd buzz" sound increases, and I'll increase my air, and tighten the corners of my embouchure, and it will go away temporarily.

Is this just a muscle thing that I can get over with with more practice?

Thanks for any reply.

BeboppinFool · Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:40 pm Post subject:

One of the first things Doc Reinhardt told me when I was having your very same problem was to keep more "weight" on the lower lip.

In other words, I was sort of mashing my top lip like crazy and "letting go" of the bottom lip.

When I shifted the weight more to the lower lip, those pesky double buzzes (in the same register you talked about, incidentally) went away.

You might want to give that a try.

Welcome to Trumpet Herald, by the way. You're liable to get 1,000 answers around here, so I would suggest that you be careful not to lose your focus by going off in 1,000 directions.

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Kohlgraf · New Member Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Posts: 8

Thank you for the advice, unfortunately I've already practiced today, but I'll give that a try tomorrow then. Thank you for the input.

Steve A · Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject:

Well, here's number two of those thousand answers:

I've had some issues with double buzzes when going higher (actually, I think it's fairly common), and when you describe it going away temporarily when you focus on firmer corners and air, it sounds to me like it might be the same thing. Derek Reaban has a great post on converting air movement into sound efficiently, and double buzzes are a prime symptom of inefficiency in this regard. Here's the post:

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35505

For me, that double buzz came from either playing with too open an aperture, or, in a sense, with too much forcefulness in my air support (although, really, those two go hand in hand), and I've made a lot of progress control and reducing this problem by doing slow, systematic soft breath attacks in different registers, lip bends (at soft volumes as well, actually), and mouthpiece playing.

Good luck, and welcome to TH!

Jack Buffe · Regular Member Joined: 16 Jul 2012 Posts: 16

It sounds like you're doing a lot of crazy nonsense. Caruso? Bebop duets? Do you ever practice trumpet fundamentals?

BeboppinFool · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:12 am Post subject:

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 3959

I would concentrate on practicing the notes immediately below the start of your difficult register, and gradually extending the practice up, taking care that the sound is good at all dynamics - start with p.

garrett901 · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:51 am Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject:

I find that I get a double buzz only under the condition of being tired and playing very large mouthpieces (Schilke 19 or Bach Mt Vernon 1) - but when it happened to me it tended to happen only on Low C and G# in the staff. For me, the large bowl shaped mouthpiece and long playing situations just don't mix.

But your buzz sounds a bit different. Some players (Conte Candoli was one of them) sometimes get a bit of a double buzz like you describe when playing jazz solos and it actually fits into the music. I'm describing a buzzy sound that happens in the middle-upper register (from around E above tuning C up to around High C or D). Sounds like what you have happening. That occasionally happens to me when I play very shallow mouthpieces.

Are you playing a small and/or shallow mouthpiece? If so, you might try switching to something a bit bigger (perhaps around the size of a 3C) and see if that makes the problem go away. If this is the solution it will be apparent within the course of one practice day.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Shaft · Veteran Member Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 483

Cut lip real deep and separating them into two different vibrating points could be it but you would know if that was it.

Fatigue is most likely a good bet
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Kohlgraf · New Member Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Posts: 8

Thank you all for the advice, I've been using a Bach 1-1/2 C for about a year now. I suppose fatigue is what might be causing it. Maybe I could be over doing the PETE exercise? I'll do both the disc and opposite end exercises 3 times each, alternating of course, for 35 seconds, and resting for about a minute in between. I'll wait about 2 hours or more before practicing, or I'll do the PETE before I sleep.

Maybe its just my embouchure? I've been told more of a pucker is to be used, I have a "1/3 upper lip 2/3 bottom lip" as described by (forgot his name... John Lynch? He's from the Asymmetric Mouthpiece website.) But I'll use, what I think is a mild pucker, and before I used the pucker I could only get to a High C, and even then it sounded strained.

With the pucker. I can get to a High C with less effort and doesn't sound strained. So I guess the pucker is ok?

garrett901 · Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:08 am Post subject:

thadjones1213 · Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:29 am Post subject:

Link

:45 to 1:30 on this clip, is it similar to this?

This can be from a variety of things in my experience, all leading to some degree of the air stream spreading a bit and some portion of your lower lip sympathetically vibrating a bit against your bottom teeth.

This can be from fatigue like some have stated earlier, or can be from a bit of swelling in the lower lip (the normal groove is a little different, or you might be setting up a little off from your most efficient set up). I was always told by my teachers when this happened that it means things are changing a bit and to relax, not lock down where you think it needs to be and let it do its thing.

I would rest a lot, do some pitch bends to find that really efficient sound and sweet spot where the sound floats from the air. Most importantly don't lock down with your mouthpiece to allow for your body to find that most efficient way of energizing the sound.

all the best

Kohlgraf · New Member Joined: 15 Jul 2012 Posts: 8

It kind of sounds like that, im not sure if the guy was doing it intentionally or not, but for me, it isn't intentional, but thanks again to all the advice

John Mohan · Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:03 am Post subject:

I don't think Randy was doing it intentionally, because you can see that the first few times it happens, he stops soloing, pulls the mouthpiece away from his lips and looks disgruntled at the horn the way we all do when what comes out the bell isn't what we were expecting. I do this myself and I always think it's just as funny as hell - what am I thinking? That it's the horn's fault?!?! As I type this I'm listening to that video in the background. What a fantastic solo!!!