Boston cornets: Mystery??

[Venturi]

We see Boston cornets from time to time on eBay. Sometimes they go for cheap and sometimes they go for much more.

Are these especially outstanding cornets, and is there anything that distinguishes a good Boston from another not-so-good Boston?

I believe Tom Turner has posted pictures of his gorgeous Boston horn.

Hoping that those of you "in the know" can comment on these old horns, their playing characteristics and anything that would make a difference to those of us who are interested in the "real" cornet sound and horns that we can truly enjoy playing. Thanks.

[mike ansberry]

I can only speak from my own experience. I bought a 3Star made in the middle 1890s. It was somewhat beat up, and I gave about $225 for it. I am an experienced brass technician, so I was able to fix it up at no expense. It is a phenomenal instrument. Don't confuse these cornets from the turn of the 20th century with modern cornets. They are quite different. Mine has a dark, smooth sound, somewhere between a trumpet and a flugel. With the cookie cutter mouthpiece flexibility is very easy. It makes playing the Arbans stuff much easier for me. I have a Buescher model 15 cornet from 1914 as well. It is in great shape. The Boston plays rings around it. The Boston has a very centered, unstuffy sound. I can't figure why any of them would go for cheap unless it is trashed.
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Music is a fire in your belly, fighting to get out. You'd better put a horn in the way before someone gets hurt.

[pmadsen]

I have a Boston 3 Star that I play in a small ragtime orchestra. It plays much better since having sent it to Anderson to have the valves redone. I agree with the tone description being between a trumpet and flugelhorn. I enjoy playing from the Arban's and St Jacome book with this instrument.

Pete Madsen

[ChopsGone]

My 3-Star is from 1908, and fully restored including valves. It's a very fine-playing instrument, and sounds like a cornet should, especially with a period mouthpiece (or a Sparx Soloist 2B, which comes extremely close on sound). Oddly enough, when cleaning and comparing several vintage cornets recently, it came in just behind a 1902 Besson Chicago Bore and a restored 1880 Courtois Arban model, pretty much tied with a Kessels Sirena from about 1910. There wasn't a loser in the bunch, though, and the differences were small and probably mostly concerned personal preferences.

Is it even necessary to mention Doc and his 3-Star (1911 or so, IIRC)? Great horns.
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[Dale Proctor]

I have a circa 1907 Besson Chicago Bore cornet, and when played with a period mouthpiece, has a beautiful, gentle tone. I thought the valves might be worn enough to give it the creamy tone, but it plays down low well and all the valve slides have a lot of compression, which aren't usually traits of loose valves. Also, it plays very well in tune and is really flexible; Arban's exercises are fun on it. I couldn't really play it in a modern cornet section, though - it just doesn't project well enough to be heard in a crowd.




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Olde Towne Brass
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Brass Band of Huntsville
www.brassbandofhuntsville.com

"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[TrentAustin]

Boston cornets are the real deal!

Tone to die for!
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[ChopsGone]

[Dale Proctor]

I guess I'm just a Class B type player...

Shortly after getting the old Besson, I took it to a brass band rehearsal for a quick tryout in a section of very good modern cornets. I expected to play it a few minutes and then stow it because of intonation problems. I played it for an hour, though, 'till our break. The old horn played great. It was a little tiring to play with the period mouthpiece, but it did reasonably well. I could hear myself well enough, but I had to up the dynamic level a notch or two to match the section. Still, it's the first really old cornet I've had that could be played with modern instruments and not be an intonation handfull.

Speaking of Boston cornets, I've never played a 3 Star, but I have played a few 1870's rotary-valved Boston cornets, both Bb and Eb, that were very good instruments. With that experience, I have no trouble believing all the good things said about the later ones.
_________________
Olde Towne Brass
www.otbrass.com

Brass Band of Huntsville
www.brassbandofhuntsville.com

"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[Venturi]

A friend informs me that some Boston 3-stars have a moveable tuning bit (leadpipe) while others have a solid leadpipe.

He says the solid-leadpipe version is considered to be a better player.

Do any of you have experience with this? I remember seeing examples of each type appearing on eBay in the past year or so. Is there a significant difference between the two?

[ChopsGone]

I've heard the same thing, but have no idea how true it might be. Mine has the separate bit, and the only vintage cornets I have which play any better than it does also have the removable bit. The Bostons with the fixed pipe are a few years newer, though, which might help.
_________________
Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[patdublc]

I had been casually looking for a good turn of the century cornet with that vintage tone for a couple of years. As pointed out by the OP, you see these on Ebay frequently but it is very difficult to judge horns of this age on Ebay. So, once I got serious about finding one, I went to the man - Trent Austin - and told him to find a good 3* for me. When Trent finally found the right one, he emailed and said that he had found it. I believe it is mid 1880's vintage and has the most marvelous tone that you can imagine.
If you can find a good one, I think you'll be really happy.

pat
_________________
Pat Shaner
Play Wedge Mouthpieces by Dr. Dave exclusively.
Experiment with LOTS of horn makes and models.

[238 Mount Vernon]

I'm lucky to have a gold plated complete kit. The only non-original part is the valve buttons. The horn has some wear but plays great. I also have a silver one in close to new condition that plays like a dream. the Bostons and the Keefers are my favorite vintage cornets.

This has low pitch and high pitch quick change tuning slides plus bits, lyre, mute and original grease cup with grease still in it.



Getzen cornet cases work great for these cornets. I found out about that from Doc. He keeps his in a Getzen case.


mmmmmmm Keefer.......

[tom turner]

A light, focused, sweet sound . . . incredibly responsive (even, and especiallly, at a "whisper" of volume), and an very even and extended range that slots all notes well . . . even above double C.

Not a heavy, battering ram type horn for heavy-handed students either, the Boston 3-Stars were lightweight horns designed for owners who appreciated the best, most cutting-edge quality horns of their day. In fine condition today, they are still horns that can equal the best in the modern horns except in one regard . . .

Today's cornets are designed for a totally different world of listeners and performers vs. the horns of 100 years ago. Back then there were no PA systems, loud cars, loud electronic music or tv . . . so listener's ears weren't bombarded into early hearing loss like we are today!

Thus, people heard music at lower levels . . . and had the sensitivity in their ears to enjoy it too. The Boston 3-Star has a "respectable" ff volume, but it is also designed to respond in an amazing manner at a REAL pp level too! The period mouthpieces also went in the same direction . . . going for the finest, richest sound with great subtlty vs. shallow cupped, tight throated "paint-peeler" mouthpiece models of today! LOL

Here's one of my two 1911-era, fixed leadpipe Boston 3-Stars . . . pictured in front of my restored 1909 M. Schultz & Co. 56" tall Model Z "Cabinet Grand," another highly regarded instrument of 100 years ago. Its cabinet is book-matched Honduran Mahogany, in the Greek Revival style. Truly, they don't make 'em like this anymore . . . and it sounds WONDERFUL too, with its bass strings as long as in a 6'3" grand piano!

Most 100 year old instruments are junk today . . . but when they are in "like new" condition, they can truly let people know that the art of making fine instruments isn't something makers just learned! LOL

That all being said . . . normally I'll have my Wild Thing short model cornet in my hands . . . it plays at a highly controlled whisper too . . . but can project at soundlevels that even a soundman with blown-out ears can appreciate!!!


_________________
Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet

[tom turner]

Here's a clip of that Boston 3-Star in performance . . . playing at a WHISPER!

It was during a recording for a Christian artist about ten years ago, just before I got my Wild Thing short cornet. This song was new by the artist and I wanted all the worldly-type "flesh" out of the sound of the horn for this song.

Yep, now double Cs, no fat vibrato, no hot-dogging . . . just as pure and humble sound as I could possibly get. Yes, I played the song at a very gentle ppp volume level and the gentle sound of the 3-Star did the rest.

Listen to the entire song and you'll hear the almost "human" sound of the 3-Star as it blends, merges with other instruments and then sometimes rises above when proper.

We used no music on this new song, just ran it down a couple of times and recorded it for the artist . . . and the entire group were a bunch of "dead" Christian worship musicians from various parts of the country. We simply felt what each other was doing . . . awesome when it happens and the performance "flesh" is not there!

Hope you enjoy it . . . and enjoy hearing a cornet that can respond at a whisper and sound so gentle and "human" in its voice. Here's the link . . . ENJOY!

ps: I used a template for the cover of this audio-only "video," and my template has my Wild Thing on the picture. THIS RECORDING WAS MADE ON THE 3-STAR, WITH THE BOSTON "COOKIE CUTTER" MOUTHPIECE that came with the cornet back in 1911.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0SNBDs-vg
_________________
Tom Turner
Flip Oakes "Wild Thing" instruments (Trumpet, Short Cornet & Fluglehorn) +
Filp Oakes C Trumpet & Flip Oakes "Celebration" Bb Trumpet

[royjohn]

It's instructive to me to look back over the threads in this forum. I can remember some threads of which the main point was that the only vintage cornet that played in tune was the Boston 3 Star. And it was implied that that was second rate because it didn't have the volume that the Wild Thing and the newer (~70's onward) English Bessons et al. had. In this thread I see mention of a couple of other vintage brands that actually might play in tune acceptably and be desirable. Is it just me or do I also notice that cornet prices on ebay are going up?

What goes around comes around. Certainly back in the day Jean Baptiste and friends did a little more lipping up and down than we do now, with acoustically engineered mouthpieces and [some acoustically engineered] horns, triggers, slides, etc. But I think you are going to see more and more properly restored horns with properly rebuilt valves and properly engineered COPIES of original mouthpieces . . . . and the great discovery is going to be that . . . . "wa-la"!!! . . . . they play fine, if on a smaller and sweeter scale than their modern counterparts.

If people made deaf by earbuds which block all outside noise and allow us to acoustically boost ourselves into a high arousal state with a self-created audio assault can hear them, I predict that we'll have a return to audio levels of yesteryear and an appreciation of lower [hopefully much lower!] dynamic levels on at least some occasions. It's sad that people don't realize that they are losing their hearing for good and it doesn't even have to hurt for it to damage your ears. Look at the research and buy the appropriate earplugs for band or orchestra . . . and consider turning down your personal devices.

Anybody can blow harder and turn up the sound louder . . . . but is it great music? Anybody can put in carpet and "acoustical" ceiling tiles and then bring in amps and tuned speaker horns to jack the volume back up, but is it really musical acoustics? Does it really improve musical performance?
_________________
royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .

[wardsd]

I am a collector, and Boston is one of the manufacturers I focus on. I have about 15 3-star or 2-star cornets.

Typically the differences in price on Ebay are due to what comes with the cornet. A cornet by itself, missing the shank typically, usually sell for $500 or less. Differences in price here are due to condition. If you have to have a shank made, it can cost $100 so that gets factored into what people are willing to pay. Another consideration is if it has a low pitch or high pitch slide in it. There is more demand for the low pitch instruments to be able to play with other modern instruments.

When the price goes above $500, it is typically because they have a "kit" - maybe a case, with the Bb and A shank and the low and high pitch slides. The collectors are more interested in this type of auction.

Many people say the fixed leadpipe cornets play better. I disagree. I do think they are more convenient since you don't have the shank to worry about, plus they have two slides (one is to go from Bb to A) so even if it is missing the low pitch slide, you can get to low pitch by pulling the A slide out some. I have two fixed leadpipe versions and neither plays that well for intonation for me.

My favorite Boston is actually the two star. That is a great instrument! The difference between the 3 star and 2 star is the bore size. A 3 star is about 472 and the 2 star is 484. 2 stars are much harder to find and usually sell on the low side for price because nobody knows how great they are.

One other comment. There are two kinds of bad condition for vintage horns. Some of them are beat up and abused. Others are worn out. With Bostons, my experience is the worn horns are often the best players. 100+ years ago, players played alot (no TV, etc - everybody went out to hear live music for entertainment). When they found a good playing horn, they PLAYED it. Often these worn horns can be brought back to life by a competent repairman and a valve job.


Steve

[Cadenza]

Are there also 1-star Boston cornets?

Wondering how the 3-star, 2-star and 1-star (if 1-stars exist) stack up in terms of sound and intonation.

Which of these models (all?) came with two sets of slides (for A and for B-flat)?

Say you are looking at a horn with only one leadpipe bit and it's not in your hands so you can't play it -- how do you know whether it's an A or a B-flat bit?

[Dale Proctor]

Usually, an 'A' bit is really long in proportion to the rest of the horn.
_________________
Olde Towne Brass
www.otbrass.com

Brass Band of Huntsville
www.brassbandofhuntsville.com

"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

[wardsd]

There is one know 1-star. It is a very early Boston with the larger .486 bore that eventually became the two-star, but has rotary valves.

Never played the 1-star, but the 3 star and 2 star cornets both have good intonation (if the valves are good). The 2 star in my opinion plays better with the larger bore (.486 vs. .472).

They all could be ordered with A and Bb leadpipes, as well as high and low pitch slides. There are also C leadpipes and slides with a rotary valve in them to allow changing from Bb to A.

The A leadpipe is very long and extends well past the back bell bow of the cornet. The Bb leadpipe is just barely past the back bell bow.

There are some rotary valve three and two star cornets as well as Piston.

Here is some additional information

http://robbstewart.com/Museum/19thCentury/BostonBbCornetsHome.html

[joensab]