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dershem
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Joined: 14 Jun 2007
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Location: San Diego, CA
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 Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: Lead pipes? |
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I now have a very nice old Cousenon, and while it plays and sounds great, I have a custom mouthpiece with a more standard shank that I paid good bucks for. It's very comfortable, too.
So ... who makes lead pipes for this horn that take a standard shank mouthpiece? |
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Matthew Anklan
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Uberopa
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| And it is excellent. Yes, I own one. |
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Flugelnut
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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You can also get yourself a Morse #1 hand reamer and ream out your pipe to the required size.
A lot cheaper and working fine. |
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lmaraya
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Joined: 12 Dec 2005
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Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: |
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You could also send your mp to kanstul and they would make an exact copy with the right shank size for the original leadpipe.
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Bob Stevenson
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Location: Essex, England
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Interested in this......
A flugle leadpipe is simply a straight sided tube apart from the mpc reciever,...so, what makes the GR product enhance the playability of the instrument? Is it simply optimum mpc fit or something else?......wall thickness?.......material choice?....slight taper?.......... |
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Adam V
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| lmaraya wrote: | | You could also send your mp to kanstul and they would make an exact copy with the right shank size for the original leadpipe. |
+1
You can't go wrong with the guys at Kanstul.
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dershem
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks, guys. |
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oldblow
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Location: Mitchell, Georgia
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Bob on the curiosity factor about the technical theory behind the pipe design. I have a Couesnon stencil in the mail and will be exploring this myself.
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FrankM
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Bob Stevenson wrote: | Interested in this......
A flugle leadpipe is simply a straight sided tube apart from the mpc reciever,...so, what makes the GR product enhance the playability of the instrument? Is it simply optimum mpc fit or something else?......wall thickness?.......material choice?....slight taper?.......... |
I never realised this Bob. Just checked my Bach Strad 183 & it's the same bore for 3 & 3/4 inches of it's 4 & 3/4 inch length. Similarly my Yamaha 635T. However my Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign despite having the same exit bore, registers some degree of internal taper ( ie the close fitting dowel used to check the other 2 will only enter the tube a few mm)but I can't measure it at the receiver end. Like you & oldblow I too am curious. |
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royjohn
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Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Fluglenut wrote:
| Quote: | You can also get yourself a Morse #1 hand reamer and ream out your pipe to the required size.
A lot cheaper and working fine. |
I thought this, too, about my trumpet receiver, which had a huge gap . . . but the reamer was about $58 + shipping. For most of us, finding a tech who has one would work better. He'll have to check to be sure that this will work, but it should, and then the horn will take a range of standard taper mouthpieces. A much better solution, to me. A tech shouldn't charge more than half of what the reamer would cost, I don't think. Maybe less.
On the question of why these tapers make such a difference on flugels, I don't think you are going to get a real, researched answer and I don't really think it makes a big difference why anyway. Empirically and practically you need to know that many intonation problems on flugels have to do with mouthpiece fit at the receiver. Getting this fixed so the mpc and the receiver mate right is the solution. When 0.050" increment of gap makes an incredible difference in playability, is it any wonder that a mpc wandering around loose screws things up?
I've seen people get rid of flugels because of this when a $30 to $100 [at the high figure we're talking replacing the receiver] repair would turn the horn into a player. This seems to happen especially to new flugel players who haven't switched instruments a lot. The horn feels so different and the intonation tendencies may not be in the same direction as the Bb trumpet and the person gives up and gets rid of the flugel. I have an old flugel someone sent me in a trade that wouldn't play for him. It had a very worn, wollered out [a Southernism there] receiver, but when I used one of my flugel mpcs with some foil wrapped around it, so that it fit approximately correctly, I couldn't find anything wrong with it, if played fine.
I had another flugel that played terrible with the leadpipe supplied, but played great when the leadpipe was replaced with a Pilczuk. I think the leadpipe I got with it was not original. It was a $100 fix and Rich Ita even had a table from old man Pilczuk which indicated which leadpipe would work in this horn . . . .
Here endeth the disquisition . . . . .
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Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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shofarguy
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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I'm assuming an old Cousenon has a French taper mouth pipe. A reamer would not be a good idea, unless it is simply to make sure the ID is within tolerance. Trying to cut a taper into it will certainly ruin the pipe, as it is made of a simple tube and outer ring for reinforcement to keep the end from splitting out.
BTW, Flugelhorn do not have receiver gaps. They merely step out from the mouthpiece shank to the tube ID.
Brian.
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:22 am Post subject: |
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I bought a GR/Melk mouthpipe for my Olds L-12 flugel and it made a noticable improvement in the tone and intonation. The intonation still isn't perfect, but the pipe was worth the money. I'll have to check to see if it has any internal taper.
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Sturmbill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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+1 to Dale's poset, except my horn is a '73 vintage Couesnon. Loaned it to a friend ( a pro player) who had the same horn and he immediately bought one.
Standard shank receiver, too...
Bill
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Sturmbill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Ooops, double post...
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Last edited by Sturmbill on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChopsGone
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:34 am Post subject: |
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+1 to Dale's post. I've bought two of the GR/Melk pipes. The one Charley fitted to a 1922 Boosey flugelhorn while restoring it made a significant difference - the horn plays as well as most new ones. The one for my Olds L-12 made a difference, but the improvement wasn't nearly as dramatic (the Olds didn't need as much help). In both cases, I consider it money well spent.
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Robert Rowe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: |
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~ mouthpipe ~ 
~ r2 ~
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Bob Stevenson
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Chops Gone,.....how do the new GR/Melk pipes differ from the standard pipes? |
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ChopsGone
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:26 am Post subject: |
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I haven't attempted to measure them in any way, as the GR/Melk pipes solved a couple of problems for me. In the vintage Boosey, they allowed a standard mouthpiece to be used - the stock pipe had been altered, and only the also-modified mouthpiece which came with the horn would fit, and none too well. With the one for the Olds, the ability to choose between large Morse taper and small Morse taper shanks was a big plus, as I try not to keep any of the SMT mouthpieces around. Where I noticed a difference was in the responsiveness (much more pronounced improvement in the Boosey), intonation (same story), and what seemed to be a slightly warmer, more flugel-like tonal quality (slight difference, but there's something better about the sound).
One of these days, I'll get really bored and see if I can get some internal measurements of the GR/Melk and the standard pipes, but I suspect there's probably a bit of difference in the internal profile past the mouthpiece insertion depth.
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razeontherock
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I will add to the mix that a french (straight) taper mouthpipe plays and sounds significantly different from a morse taper (either small or large)
I've got both for my 1525 and while I prefer the french, the Bach is a nice change, more suited to playing in a section. And +1 to the idea that you want mpc and mouthpipe to "mate" exquisitely. |
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