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Watershadow
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
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 Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: Leaking Air |
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I post this with some urgency as I have an important pair of high school auditions coming up in late fall. The main problem with my playing seems to be embouchure related.
Since Late Freshman year I have or had been able to play a high C with, in my opinion, minimal pressure. Sophomore year I was even given a marching band solo which required me to play completely exposed at that register, my musicality has steadily developed and my tone is decent for my age. Since my 2nd semester of Junior, I have noticed SIGNIFICANT air leakage from mainly the right side of my embouchure, it started off only happening while playing in the middle registe and above such as a top space E inside the staff, but now it can happen in any register. Originally both me and my teacher thought it was due to lack of corner strength, when I play, the right side looks SIGNIFICANTLY less flexed than the left side, however, now air randomly leaks from the left side as well. I feel like I am going on a downward spiral. Last year I had a solid high D, I now strugle to play a high C, especially when it is sustained. My pressure is nearly non-existant. I need to fix this issue before the fall or else I do not feel I will reach my playing goals.
I do have an embouchure slightly left of center, however, changing it at this point is not possible due to fall auditions.
-Thanks |
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crzytptman
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Joined: 03 Sep 2003
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Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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By teacher, I hope you mean a private teacher. If not, you should get one. A good teacher could easily guide you on a path of development. As for minimal pressure, great players use as much as they need. You have to have make a seal.
I think it was Claude Gordon who said, regarding "no pressure" playing:
"You can try that, but first there will be no pressure, then no tone, then no job".
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Watershadow
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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He is a private teacher, but despite being a great guy I honestly do not think he is very good  . I have a quick question that he didn't answer too confidently, when I play am I suppose to flex my corners at all registers? |
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crzytptman
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Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8254
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that's the best way to think of it. I like to think of gripping the mpc from the sides, keeping whatever is inside the rim relaxed to vibrate. But, I would probably prescribe some exercises that would coach you into the proper form.
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7490
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: Leaking Air |
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| Watershadow wrote: |
I do have an embouchure slightly left of center, however, changing it at this point is not possible due to fall auditions. |
Welcome to TH!
This is all fixable. (Time for a deep breath)
No need to "change your embouchure," in terms of placing the mouthpiece somewhere else. (And even if there were, from here nobody could tell you that)
You feel like you've been on a downward spiral, because you have been on a downward spiral! Out of all the great teachers who have a whole sub-forum dedicated to them, I know of only one who focused on removing all air leaks. If the shoe fits ...
Anyway, what you describe can be pretty simple, but you are correct to be proactive about it now, with plenty of time to develop. I'm not sure if it'll help any to look backwards to see what you've done to contribute to this problem, you'll have to make that decision. Moving forward, you can think of "gripping the mouthpiece" with your chops. Another valuable point for you will be the concept of forward pressure. This should be easy for you, since you state you don't have excessive mouthpiece pressure. The concept of "forward pressure," is that the pressure of mouthpiece back against your face, is less than the pressure of chops moving forward into the mouthpiece. The result is a nice cushiony feel, a very stable embouchure, I hope you can at least conceptualize how this relates to "gripping the mouthpiece," and this will at least reduce air leaks, in time.
Another factor that may (or may not) be involved here, is to have more mouthpiece pressure on the lower lip than on the upper. 2 factors influence this: jaw position (how far receded or pushed forward) and horn angle. Your whole problem could have easily been that one of these factors got a bit out of whack and you just weren't aware of it.
This should at least give you something to work on? Every one of these ideas is courtesy of Donald S Reinhardt, who also advocated the use of A & D ointment to seal up air leaks immediately, so you can get used to playing like that. This should just be a temporary crutch, not a permanent fix.
I highly recommend getting a lesson on skype from one of the Reinhardt guys. Any of them will fix you up fast! In the meantime, you could also spell out what you're practicing? I would suggest working on these mechanics while maintaining even mouthpiece pressure across all your registers, and not being too focused on upper range right now. |
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musicalmason1
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Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 448
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| I am in agreement with the other posters here that you should seek a lesson from somebody else, via skype or whatever. It will be much easier to diagnose your problem by seeing it happen. That being said, I do have some advice that may help, and if it doesn't, it won't hurt. Try a warburton P.E.T.E. http://www.warburton-usa.com/index.php/products/accessories/36-accessories/190-PETE I recommend using this tool, first of all because it worked for me. Since I started using it I find my endurance is improved and my corner strength has undoubtably improved. The second reason I recommend it, since I can't see your embouchure I do not know if any change is needed. The P.E.T.E will not change your set up, just strengthen the muscles. So as long as it is used properly (look at the videos) it will do no harm, only potentially good. Who knows, it may even fix your problem. |
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Brian Moon
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Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 2698
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:53 am Post subject: Re: Leaking Air |
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| Watershadow wrote: |
I do have an embouchure slightly left of center, however, changing it at this point is not possible due to fall auditions.
-Thanks |
You can change your embouchure easily in 2 weeks. It sounds like you can't afford not to.
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7490
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Leaking Air |
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| Brian Moon wrote: |
You can change your embouchure easily in 2 weeks. It sounds like you can't afford not to. |
Just to avoid confusion for our new young friend, by "embouchure change," you merely mean adjusting something to fix the problem, and not necessarily placing the mouthpiece somewhere else? |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 5727
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi Watershadow,
Where (approximately) do you live?
I'd like to help you and I think I can.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3aegrEZc_8
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Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
14 Year Claude Gordon Student
1st Trpt for "Cats", "Phantom of the Opera",
"West Side Story", "Evita", "Grease",
Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", etc.
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7490
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| To the OP: vote of confidence that the above poster indeed could. |
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Watershadow
New Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Welcome to TH!
This is all fixable. (Time for a deep breath)
No need to "change your embouchure," in terms of placing the mouthpiece somewhere else. (And even if there were, from here nobody could tell you that)
You feel like you've been on a downward spiral, because you have been on a downward spiral! Out of all the great teachers who have a whole sub-forum dedicated to them, I know of only one who focused on removing all air leaks. If the shoe fits ...
Anyway, what you describe can be pretty simple, but you are correct to be proactive about it now, with plenty of time to develop. I'm not sure if it'll help any to look backwards to see what you've done to contribute to this problem, you'll have to make that decision. Moving forward, you can think of "gripping the mouthpiece" with your chops. Another valuable point for you will be the concept of forward pressure. This should be easy for you, since you state you don't have excessive mouthpiece pressure. The concept of "forward pressure," is that the pressure of mouthpiece back against your face, is less than the pressure of chops moving forward into the mouthpiece. The result is a nice cushiony feel, a very stable embouchure, I hope you can at least conceptualize how this relates to "gripping the mouthpiece," and this will at least reduce air leaks, in time.
Another factor that may (or may not) be involved here, is to have more mouthpiece pressure on the lower lip than on the upper. 2 factors influence this: jaw position (how far receded or pushed forward) and horn angle. Your whole problem could have easily been that one of these factors got a bit out of whack and you just weren't aware of it.
This should at least give you something to work on? Every one of these ideas is courtesy of Donald S Reinhardt, who also advocated the use of A & D ointment to seal up air leaks immediately, so you can get used to playing like that. This should just be a temporary crutch, not a permanent fix.
I highly recommend getting a lesson on skype from one of the Reinhardt guys. Any of them will fix you up fast! In the meantime, you could also spell out what you're practicing? I would suggest working on these mechanics while maintaining even mouthpiece pressure across all your registers, and not being too focused on upper range right now. |
Thanks for the pointers, they were enlightening. Right now my practice routine is Claude Gordon systematic approach, still on lesson 1, and then I just play Arban characteristic studies. Right now number 12 because I need to play it for my audition.
| Quote: | | I don't think that's the best way to think of it. I like to think of gripping the mpc from the sides, keeping whatever is inside the rim relaxed to vibrate. But, I would probably prescribe some exercises that would coach you into the proper form |
Which exercises?
| Quote: |
You can change your embouchure easily in 2 weeks. It sounds like you can't afford not to. |
2 weeks?
| Quote: | | Just to avoid confusion for our new young friend, by "embouchure change," you merely mean adjusting something to fix the problem, and not necessarily placing the mouthpiece somewhere else? |
I literally meant place it somewhere else, the center.
I live near St. Louis, but I'm not sure how open my parents would be to getting a lesson from some "random" person on the internet, especially my mother >.<.
I have won a scolarship through my band program and I have recieved a decent ammount of money to get a couple lessons with some great teachers, I will be going to see them soon.
Last edited by Watershadow on Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 548
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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As all the other replies have said, getting lessons from a GOOD teacher is paramount. To take lessons from just anyone, because of convenience, or politics, or saving $$$ is a false economy, and you end up having to shell out more later, or end up with no positive result. But, with the right guidance, you should be fine.
| Quote: | | Right now my practice routine is Claude Gordon systematic approach, still on lesson 1, and then I just play Arban characteristic studies. Right now number 12 because I need to play it for my audition. |
This description is at the heart of your issues: lesson 1 and these studies do not marry up - at all. You may need to forget about practising some difficult etude, and spend sometime - even if it's only a short time - on your basic production. Here is where the knowledgeable teacher comes in.
I have had a student develop this issue over the past 6 months. Our solution was to forget his concert pieces for a few weeks, and focus on how he makes the trumpet play. We found he had twisted up his basic note production, and his lip setting only kicked in after the note started.
Some VERY careful work, especially using some Schuebruk attack exercises seems to have done the trick. But, it took time and effort, and needed the student to forget abot playing complex music for a period of time.
Your mileage will of course vary, but an experienced and skilled teacher will hep you out of the woods in short order.
cheers
Andy
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so many horns, so few good notes |
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Watershadow
New Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| My main problem is motivation to be honest . What would you suggest for a better routine? |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 7490
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Watershadow wrote: | | My main problem is motivation to be honest . What would you suggest for a better routine? |
It would be a worthwhile contribution to TH to give the names of the great teachers you're planning on seeing. They're local to you, right? |
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Watershadow
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Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Fairly local. One is a trumpet doctor at a university Dr. Korak and another is a lady at Illinois state university, another doctor.
Korak usually judges all of the district/ state/ honor band trumpet auditions around my area and is well respected. |
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Matt Parkinson
Regular Member
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: |
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Hey there,
A large part of this could be a mental thing, it sounds as though you didn't worry too much before you started getting an air leak.
To put your mind at rest i know a fantastic professional player over here in the UK that leaks air and he can knock out huge double high 'c's and above all day, he is also the most fantastic musician i have ever heard (including all the big boys!)
Playing off centre doesn't affect your playing (look at joey pero on youtube)
A good solid routine with patience and practice will sort things, my advice would be to take lessons with John Mohan (who posted earlier) or Jeff Purtle (www.purtle.com), both of these guys are great great teachers and the system works!
Hope this helps and don't worry!
Kind Regards,
Matt |
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crzytptman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 8254
Location: Escondido CA (just north of 'Dego)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Well, this is where a skilled teacher needs to work with you in person. I would hope that university professors that hold doctorates in trumpet playing would be able to help you.
| Quote: | | I love 20 minutes or so from St. Louis, |
A little too much information . . . 
_________________
Crazy Nate aka Jive-a-licious
www.themodernancients.com
www.flipoakes.com
Strive to have a great day, full of learning and enlightenment, using the mind that God gave you.
"Am I really crazy, or just so sane I blow your mind?" - Cosmo Kramer |
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Watershadow
New Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: |
Well, this is where a skilled teacher needs to work with you in person. I would hope that university professors that hold doctorates in trumpet playing would be able to help you.
| Quote: | | I love 20 minutes or so from St. Louis, |
A little too much information . . . |
 Fine, fixed. |
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Pops
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002
Posts: 1489
Location: Dallas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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There are a lot of reasons why you might have started to leak air.
You finally overworked the embouchure and the corners are too tired to support as they used to. If that is the case an exercise like the pete will cause more problems.
You made some small adjustments to your embouchure and don't have enough strength in this position. If this is the case then an exercise like the pete will help.
These are 2 very real possibilities.
See you are setting yourself up to fail; by asking people who can NOT see you play. The only thing that we can do is guess.
When is the last time that you took 2 days off from playing and any facial exercise?
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Watershadow
New Member
Joined: 29 Jun 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | There are a lot of reasons why you might have started to leak air.
You finally overworked the embouchure and the corners are too tired to support as they used to. If that is the case an exercise like the pete will cause more problems.
You made some small adjustments to your embouchure and don't have enough strength in this position. If this is the case then an exercise like the pete will help.
These are 2 very real possibilities.
See you are setting yourself up to fail; by asking people who can NOT see you play. The only thing that we can do is guess.
When is the last time that you took 2 days off from playing and any facial exercise? |
A month or so |
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