• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Red Rot in Your Horns?


Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns
View previous topic :: View next topic  

How many of you experience the following:
Red Rot
15%
 15%  [ 11 ]
Finish Corrosion
25%
 25%  [ 18 ]
Both
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Neither
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 71

Author Message
Michael Drapp
Veteran Member


Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 410
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Red Rot in Your Horns? Reply with quote

How many of you have trouble with red rot in your horns? What about finish corrosion from your hands? What do you folks do about the inside and outside of your horns? Does it work?
_________________
Michael R. Drapp,
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
improver
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Posts: 1453

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red rot takes a long time.Keep ypu horn clean especially the leadpipe. Rinse the leadpipe with dishsoap and water every week because thats where the acid from your saliva mainly is. Once red rot starts you can really stop it but you can slow it down . You can do a chem clean on the horn. But unless its an older horn or abused it usually takes along time for red rot. Sometimes the lfetime of the horn.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
shofarguy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 7003
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a small spot of red rot in the mouth pipe of my Benge. Both Zig Kanstul and Flip dissuaded me from changing out the part. They said it might change the way the horn plays and I might not like it, and they told me it would be years before the rot progressed enough to warrant replacement.

I had not cleaned the horn so much while in college or during the long years of idle storage, but after starting up again, I cleaned it once a month. I guess I turned a little Monk-ish.

Now, I clean my WT horns about twice a year and use the Blow-Dry-Brass system after each session. After a year of this, it seems to be working very well.

I have never had problems with acidic hands, so my horns' finishes are just fine.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trpthrld
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 4800

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little lead pipe swabbing on a regular basis would surely help delay red rot from forming.
_________________
Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Leonel Leon
Veteran Member


Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 145

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what is that chance that a horn will develop redrot?? I have never gotten it. I give my horn a bath once a month, and re grease and oil everything. I have never once used a leadpipe swab. I do use a snake like thing for that bath however. I have been told I have good body chemistry with horns by a tech who cleaned out my horn for a chem clean, which is the first and possibly last one I will ever do. Hahaha But I do take very good care of my horns, I do my best to swish my mouth with water before I play, or brush my teeth if possible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capt.Kirk
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 5792

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The horns came to me used with red-rot and surface blemishes. Since replacing leadpipes and or main tuning slides I have not had any issues with either. I do think that any OEM not offering their horns with gold brass or higher copper content in the leadpipe and main tuning slide and basically greedy as can be and opportunist not to offer it free of charge. The exception would be monster thick leadpipe like Taylor and Harrelson use on some model. No way you would live long enough to see red-rot eat through one of those. In my book no excuse at all to use anything less then gold brass for leadpipe and main tuning slides since $89-$150 Chinese student trumpets manage to use these materials sell the horn cheap and turn a profit for all those in the supply chain. No one should have to replace a leadpipe or main slide on a pro level horn ever due to red-rot.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DivineWind
Veteran Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2009
Posts: 269
Location: MA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF not before....once one has had to have some serious dental work done....crowns, root canals, etc....one then should not need to be urged to brush, floss, and rinse religiously.

Once one has had nice, otherwise-surviving vintage horns with red rot or internal leadpipe corrosion....one then SHOULD no longer need to be urged to swab the leadpipe on any horn worthy of preservation(and I also do the tuning slide, with another dry swab, while it is in-hand) religiously.

And.....THIS ad just happens to have been posted very recently...


http://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=46101&s=The-Best-Damn-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-Period-
_________________
"A trumpet is like a woman. If you lose one, just wait patiently and eventually a good one will come your way. And the older ones are a little better if you wait patiently, and a lot less expensive."

- Forrest Buchtel


Last edited by DivineWind on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
laurie
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a very nice Marcinkiewicz trumpet that has rot in the lead pipe. I got the horn used, and it had obviously been neglected by the previous owner. If it reaches the point were the horn is unplayable I will have the pipe replaced, untill then I wont worry about it.
The plating on the horn is still perfect.
You have to wonder why anyone would neglect such a fine instrument.
Cheers
Laurie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3619
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DivineWind wrote:
IF not before....once one has had to have some serious dental work done....crowns, root canals, etc....one then should not need to be urged to brush, floss, and rinse religiously.

Once one has had nice, otherwise-surviving vintage horns with red rot or internal leadpipe corrosion....one then SHOULD no longer need to be urged to swab the leadpipe on any horn worthy of preservation(and I also do the tuning slide, with another dry swab, while it is in-hand) religiously.

And.....THIS ad just happens to have been posted very recently... :wink:




http://www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=46101&s=The-Best-Damn-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-Period-


Forrest Buchtel, eh? Great trumpet player, one of my formative experiences playing with him on a rock gig in San Francisco. He had his thing together, on a C trumpet!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael Drapp
Veteran Member


Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 410
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I greatly appreciate your responses to my poll I'll continue to run it for a while and see if we can get a larger response. Just call me "Curious"
_________________
Michael R. Drapp,
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Irving
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 1884

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red rot can eat through a leadpipe in a year. Or it might never develop. It all depends on the chemistry of your saliva. If you do have red rot problems, then you need to swab out your horn after every playing session. By leaving your leadpipe and tuning crook dry, you won't ever develop red rot problems (if you are starting out with a clean horn with no RR). You can also leave your tuning crook open side facing down, out of your horn, air drying it, as well as the leadpipe, after swabbing both out). Those of you that never clean their horns and don't have red rot are lucky.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MichaelM2
Veteran Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1963 vintage Selmer L-990 that developed red rot in the leadpipe within 5 years of being new. To date there has not been any penetration, still living with the spots. I'll replace the leadpipe when the holes show up.

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Michael Drapp
Veteran Member


Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 410
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is surprising to me that more folks are experiencing red rot that external corrosion as a single issue but that the majority of people experience both or none at all! This tends to support the "human chemistry factor" hypothesis more than how one cares for their horns, yes?
_________________
Michael R. Drapp,
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 2335
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have experienced both, but I honestly think it has more to do with the specific horn than my personal chemistry.

I don't seem to be too hard on lacquer, whether the age-darkened stuff on my '56 Committee or the more modern finishes on newer horns. There's a small patch missing on the first valve of my quite new Jupiter XO 1600i, but I put my right thumb between the first and second valves and that's where my thumbnail rubs.

I went through the silver plate on my Bach Strad flugelhorn, which I owned for 18 years, at all the contact points pretty quickly. But I haven't on any other silver horn I own -- not the Holton Superbone (27 years and counting), nor the Getzen Eterna picc (also 27 years and counting). Nor any of the vintage Conn cornets (three) I've bought since. Could the problem have been the plating quality on the flugel?

I had a lot of red rot develop in the leadpipe of a Holton trumpet within a year of purchase. The Bach flugel never developed rot. After 27 years, the Superbone has one bubble in the plating on the handslide crook, and the Eterna picc has a bubble in the plating on the fourth valve slide. Both the Superbone and picc have spent a lot of time sitting around on stands.

My maintenance practices haven't changed significantly over the years. I'll admit they could be better, but the results suggest to me that the instruments themselves are a big variable.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christian K. Peters
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Nov 2001
Posts: 1529
Location: Eugene, Oregon

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Red rot Reply with quote

Hello all,
I did not know I had any red rot at all until I had my horns ultra-sonically cleaned. Once they went through the process, holes would appear. This had happened with a Calicchio, then my Schilke. I just remembered that I had also experienced a hole by wear. I had a horn converted to a tuning bell. Sometime years later, I notice a weird buzz coming from my horn. I just could not ignore it. I played and inspected for minutes, until I noticed a hole in the bell tube going into the first valve. My thumb/palm had finally worn a hole through the tubing. I knew there was wear, but had no idea the extent.
_________________
Christian K. Peters
Schilke Loyalist since 1976
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2827
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christian's experience with ultrasonic cleaning is too common these days. Though we have ultrasonic cleaners in our shop we use them primarily for degreasing, where they are most useful. New instruments without rot can withstand the bombardment of cavitation, however if there's a weakness in the alloy or finish it will loosen material wherever it may be. In order for the solution to be most effective manufacturers of ultrasonic cleaners suggest heating solutions to 140 degrees. This adds to the problem of damaging finishes, especially clouding and lifting lacquers. Like any tool, we rely on our better judgement when and how to use ultrasonic cleaning. Problems with holes opening up occur when the damage from neglect has already been done. As others have pointed out, keeping your instrument cleaned and oiled should be no different than flossing and brushing your teeth.

I hope this is helpful.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
trpthrld
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 4800

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I has a similar experience to Christian's on a Schilke tuning bell trumpet. During a concert I felt a slight "breeze" of air on my left palm. Looking more closely at it during intermission, I saw that I had worn a pin-hole through where my palm came in contact with the male slide coming out of the 1st valve.

A little Scotch tape over the hole took care of it until I could get the tube replaced.

I should add that from my teen years through my early 30s my body chemistry would rapidly eat through silver. One other Schilke that I had, in just over a one year time period, looked like I had been playing it for many more years than that one, just from eating through the silver plate.

There was a time when I had to put a layer of clear nail polish where I had skin contact on any silver horn I owned. Fortunately for my horns, starting in my late 30s something in me changed, and I don't have the eating through silver issue anymore.

But (getting back to the thread topic), eating through from body / skin acid is, I'm fairly sure, something different than red rot caused from saliva.

Hopefully one of our more medically-trained TH members will add in with their take on the subject of saliva & body acids.
_________________
Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bill Blackwell
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1019
Location: Southern CA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was younger, my hands were very acidic (we're taking the 1970s here). Within a few years of playing with my bare hands the silver plating on my Bach 37 was completely thrashed. Now my hands have no effect on my horn(s) whatsoever.

AFAIK, I have never had any issues whatsoever with red rot.
_________________
Bill Blackwell
Founder - Sons of Thunder Big Band Machine

Wild Thing Bb - Copper
Wild Thing Flugelhorn - Copper
Wild Thing Short-Model Cornet - Copper

The future ain't what it used to be. ...
- Yogi Berra
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
John Mohan
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9828
Location: Chicago, Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

improver wrote:
...because thats where the acid from your saliva mainly is.


Unless a person suffers from a calcium deficiency, the normal pH of saliva is 7.4 (as are both blood and spinal fluid). As such, saliva is slightly basic, not acidic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
razeontherock
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watch it, now John's going to be Barefoot Bob and sell us all on coral calcium

I don't know how much truth there may be to the benefits of body pH level being base and not acidic, nor do I know if my hands have changed since eating through the lacquer of my (then) new Strad in what seemed to be record time. I use leather guards whether it's raw brass, silver, or gold. (I have all 3) I don't notice it changing playability or tone, although it does deaden the feel of the vibrations in my hands. (Might reduce player feedback a tad too?)

I've never developed red rot, but I did buy a horn with it intending to swap out the leadpipe, even though I expected it would take years before it became a hole. I don't like the idea of the innards of a horn being "modified" due to corrosion; I expect it won't be even, or musically advantageous.

Only in the past 3 years or so have I begun swabbing out my leadpipe and tuning slide, using Mr Wendt's excellent product. So I guess I'm the case scenario the OP was looking for?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Horns All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group