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Red Rot in Your Horns?


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How many of you experience the following:
Red Rot
15%
 15%  [ 11 ]
Finish Corrosion
25%
 25%  [ 18 ]
Both
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Neither
29%
 29%  [ 21 ]
Total Votes : 71

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jon_norstog
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clean your horn! I tear down my Silver Sonic after playing, pull the slides (except #2, which is tight and iffy and I don't want to make it worse) valves and caps - I shake and blow them out, blow in the leadpipe and the pipes leading to the valves. I swab the valve bores and dry the valve bodies, then put the whole thing back to gether.

If I'm prac ticing at home I use the air blow fitting on my compressor.

Speaking of what goes in your mouth going into your horn - years ago I eBayed an "art deco" King Liberty. Seemed kind of stuffy, so I took it to an insturment guy for cleaning. He opened it up and took out what looked like half a can of snoose!

jn
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jon_norstog wrote:
Clean your horn! I tear down my Silver Sonic after playing, pull the slides (except #2, which is tight and iffy and I don't want to make it worse) valves and caps - I shake and blow them out, blow in the leadpipe and the pipes leading to the valves. I swab the valve bores and dry the valve bodies, then put the whole thing back to gether.

If I'm prac ticing at home I use the air blow fitting on my compressor.

Speaking of what goes in your mouth going into your horn - years ago I eBayed an "art deco" King Liberty. Seemed kind of stuffy, so I took it to an insturment guy for cleaning. He opened it up and took out what looked like half a can of snoose!

jn


Dude, you gotta take the second slide out or you're not cleaning the horn completely. Use grease and work the slides in one at a time when finished, and then work it with both slides. You'll be OK.
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
Watch it, now John's going to be Barefoot Bob and sell us all on coral calcium

I don't know how much truth there may be to the benefits of body pH level being base and not acidic, nor do I know if my hands have changed since eating through the lacquer of my (then) new Strad in what seemed to be record time. I use leather guards whether it's raw brass, silver, or gold. (I have all 3) I don't notice it changing playability or tone, although it does deaden the feel of the vibrations in my hands. (Might reduce player feedback a tad too?)

I've never developed red rot, but I did buy a horn with it intending to swap out the leadpipe, even though I expected it would take years before it became a hole. I don't like the idea of the innards of a horn being "modified" due to corrosion; I expect it won't be even, or musically advantageous.

Only in the past 3 years or so have I begun swabbing out my leadpipe and tuning slide, using Mr Wendt's excellent product. So I guess I'm the case scenario the OP was looking for?


I read so much about red rot and external finish damage on the forum that I wanted to learn how large of a problem this is and what others are doing "that works" to prevent or slow down these processes. Personally, I have never had any red rot in my horns nor do I experience finish damage. I wipe down my horn after every session and I clean my leadpipe with a bore snake and some valve oil a couple of times a year. Sometimes, I flush out the slides with water and this is all I need to do.
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I greatly appreciate all of your responses thus far but I would like to hear from more of you...please let me know about your experiences, thanks
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Microblitz
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
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Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use those little sponges that you blow round the tubing to clean my Sev out.

I know they say that you shouldnt reuse them, but I do. The mix they use is isopropl alcohol which is the stuff that you used to use to clean tape heads with.

You cant buy that over the counter here, so I wash the sponges in a bag in the washing machine, then use an instrument safe disenfectant which is sold by the local shop here to fill the tub they came in with and use that.

Hey ok, I'm not a skinflint, but those things cost the equivalent of $12 by the time I get them here! That's almost the same price as a gallon of petrol or a packet of cigarettes!
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't buy isopropyl rubbing alcohol? And I thought we had weird restrictions here in the States ...
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
You can't buy isopropyl rubbing alcohol? And I thought we had weird restrictions here in the States ...


I'm gawking over the $12 gallon of gas and $12 pack of cigarettes...
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MattC
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Microblitz wrote:
I use those little sponges that you blow round the tubing to clean my Sev out.

I know they say that you shouldnt reuse them, but I do. The mix they use is isopropl alcohol which is the stuff that you used to use to clean tape heads with.

You cant buy that over the counter here, so I wash the sponges in a bag in the washing machine, then use an instrument safe disenfectant which is sold by the local shop here to fill the tub they came in with and use that.

Hey ok, I'm not a skinflint, but those things cost the equivalent of $12 by the time I get them here! That's almost the same price as a gallon of petrol or a packet of cigarettes!


Your time is worth a ton, so you aren't a skinflint. But this method is "team cheapskate (c) approved"

By the way--I just noticed this past month that my Getzen Severinsen (slightly younger than yours) has rot in the leadpipe. My guess is that with care I can make this last, but it was a sad moment.
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Microblitz
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
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Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now red rot I something I have been thinking about.

When pipes crack here, the engineers fill the pipe under Pressure with a resin plastic which is forces into the cracks sealing then and bonding the material together. The plastic is like the gel coat you use for glass reinforced plastic.

Now im betting a similar process could be developed for repairing red rot holes instruments. All it takes is figuring out how to pressurise the tube and how to ensure that the right amount of gel is distributed. You want it to block the holes not coat the inside of the lead pipe.

There's the concept now get in the garage and figure out how to make it simple and cheap to do. And if you make any money out of the idea, I have a martin committee fund available.

Another Wacky© Idea from ...
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Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14


Last edited by Microblitz on Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:32 am; edited 3 times in total
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Microblitz
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012
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Location: 40 Minutes from StoneHenge SW England.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and I was joking about the cigarettes and petrol . Its about its about £1.50 a litre and there are 4.6 litres to an English gallon. There are 1.6 dollars to £1.
That's (1.50x4.6) = 6.9 x 1.6 = $11.04 an English gallon.
A packet of 20 cigarettes are about $8.00
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Chris.
-------
Olds Recording '68:Olds Mendez '52:Olds Mendez Cornet '52:Getzen Severinsen 74:Rudy MÜck 5M '58:Getzen Super Deluxe '58:Conn Wonder Cornet '14
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Microblitz
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

opps...
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plp
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thread, found the first Conn leadpipe with red rot I've seen on a 80-A. This one is from 1958, which seems to be a transitional year and one of the reasons I got it was for a parts horn for another 1958 which has a twist in the leadpipe.

I have several others spanning 1923-1967 and this is the first. Has anyone else found a vintage Conn with this problem? Were there particular years or models that seem to have this problem?

For the techs, when the heavy acids are used in the manufacturing process are the horns then just rinsed or are they bathed in a base solution to neutralize them?

With no intention of flaming one manufacturer over another, I have avoided purchasing Yamahas made before about 1985, as acid bleed under the lacquer and in one case under the silver plate seems to be a problem on their student line trumpets, cornets, and trombones. Some of my old Conns from the 1960-1969 timeline seem to have issues as well, usually at the bell rim.

Vintage Benges and Martins seem to be more prone to red rot based on what I've read here and on TM but that may be more attributed to the care or lack of such given these instruments over time. Both are fine instruments and out of my price range due to their desirability.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Microblitz wrote:
Now red rot I something I have been thinking about.

When pipes crack here, the engineers fill the pipe under Pressure with a resin plastic which is forces into the cracks sealing then and bonding the material together. The plastic is like the gel coat you use for glass reinforced plastic.

Now im betting a similar process could be developed for repairing red rot holes instruments. All it takes is figuring out how to pressurise the tube and how to ensure that the right amount of gel is distributed. You want it to block the holes not coat the inside of the lead pipe.

There's the concept now get in the garage and figure out how to make it simple and cheap to do. And if you make any money out of the idea, I have a martin committee fund available. :lol:

Another Wacky© Idea from ...


I like the idea, but I don't think it will "stick, " so to speak, to the pipe.
The fatigued area can be cleaned, or patched on the outside if it's really bad, but nothing will stick to it, including plating, if it's a big enough area.
It's a rough copper spot, essentially.
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The polymer resin will stick by geometry (filling interconnected voids) if there is enough copper left. This is a great idea.

I wonder though, how is polymerization initiated - thermally, chemically, photochemically, radiochemically?
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stumac
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 1976 Getzen Severinsen with some red rot in the leadpipe just past the receiver, shows some marks in the silver outside.

After a thorough cleaning and drying I intend to fill the rot from the inside with a 2 part epoxy resin filled with brass to powder using an oven at 100 degrees C to properly cure.

I have used this method to build up worn low stress bearings with success in small machine tools and see no reason why it will not work in a leadpipe.

Regards, Stuart.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plp wrote:
Interesting thread, found the first Conn leadpipe with red rot I've seen on a 80-A. This one is from 1958, which seems to be a transitional year and one of the reasons I got it was for a parts horn for another 1958 which has a twist in the leadpipe.

I have several others spanning 1923-1967 and this is the first. Has anyone else found a vintage Conn with this problem? Were there particular years or models that seem to have this problem?


Red rot seems to be a problem with the sleeved leadpipes on the Vocabell cornets and trumpets. The leadpipe on my 48A was quite rotten, I've seen other Vocabells with pitted leadpipes, and I've heard of several more.
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Pinsel
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My trumpet finish turned green on the slide where I put my thumb and on the third valve. Maybe because I sweat a lot.

I read that you can clean this up with vinegar, but I am too lazy to do it and I am afraid that I will further damage the finish.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumac wrote:
I have a 1976 Getzen Severinsen with some red rot in the leadpipe just past the receiver, shows some marks in the silver outside.

After a thorough cleaning and drying I intend to fill the rot from the inside with a 2 part epoxy resin filled with brass to powder using an oven at 100 degrees C to properly cure.

I have used this method to build up worn low stress bearings with success in small machine tools and see no reason why it will not work in a leadpipe.


Regards, Stuart.



Please let us know how this works, it's new one on me.
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stumac wrote:
I have a 1976 Getzen Severinsen with some red rot in the leadpipe just past the receiver, shows some marks in the silver outside.

After a thorough cleaning and drying I intend to fill the rot from the inside with a 2 part epoxy resin filled with brass to powder using an oven at 100 degrees C to properly cure.

I have used this method to build up worn low stress bearings with success in small machine tools and see no reason why it will not work in a leadpipe.

Regards, Stuart.



I have considered a process somewhat similar, but using a TIN alloy.

I have (and use) a very expensive set of French copper cookware ("Mauviel" brand). You may not be aware (unless you have similar) that the cooking surface ( where the food contacts ) is lined with tin; and it is normal through usage for the tin coating to wear through, eventually; at which point the utensils are sent out to be re-tinned. The shipping cost is much higher than the cost of the re-tinning ( these are very thick, heavy pots and pans).

IF the re-tinning companies could do this, the next step would be to hone smooth the inside of the mouthpipe.

I once found a supplier for these "mini-hones", but ... alas ... have misplaced. They are used in the automobile industry for honing brake cylinders ( I advocate replacing; NOT doing this. I am a former Porsche+Audi factory-trained tech).

Anyone here (@TH) know of a supplier of "mini-hones"? They have three "springy fingers", and come in various sizes for honing inside cylinders. The regular NAPA stores have brake-cylinder hones, but these are too large.

Probably, switching-out a mouthpipe with a replacement would be more cost-effective.


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stumac
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert,

I think you may be thinking of Flex Hones, a stiff bristle brush with a ball of abrasive on the end of the bristle.

My repairer has a selection of these for valve casings, trombone slides, tuning slides etc, just look for Flex Hones on ebay, they come in a range of sizes from 1/4" to several inches in diameter.

Regards, Stuart.
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