Modern cornet similar to Bix' cornet

kehaulani

It's my understanding that Bix played, at various times, Conn Victor 80A and 81A New Wonders, Bach Stradivarius, and a Holton-Clarke.

Would anyone know which horn he played in his days with Frankie Trumbauer*, and what modern cornet might be the closest in sound to that?

(Yes, I know,"it's the player, not the horn". But that's not what I'm asking.)

Thanks.

* This period:
"I'm Coming Virginia"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW7YYt0F-K4&feature=relmfu

"Singing the Blues"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMjjIPmPxWY
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

delano · Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:07 am Post subject:

Bix played almost everything on the Victor cornets (the 80A and 81A are almost identical). There is a photograph of him with a Holton Clarke cornet, "which he may never have used" (from Bix, by Jean Pierre Lion, p.295), probably only a sponsor thing.
Maybe he played a (borrowed?) Martin cornet on the the Rhythm Jugglers recordings (1925).
The Bach cornets he bought, one was for Jimmy McPartland, the other for Bix is on display at the Davenport Putnam museum (serial number 620) and its condition seems to indicate that it was not played much (Bix, Lion p. 295).
So most recordings are probably done by Bix using the Victors. Maybe Toddler's Blues and Davenport Blues are done with a Martin cornet. It is unclear what he played here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmD7jeIEkfg (from 1'10). I think the Martin.
I have a silver 80A from 1942 and I played many modern cornets but there is no modern cornet that plays or sounds like a 80A. Especially the barking sound of a 80A in the low middle is a unique selling point.

kehaulani · Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject:

Thank you very much, delano. Are the 80As and 81As particularly problematic to play, vis a vis stuffiness, intonation or the like?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

derby_mute · Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:44 pm Post subject:

As mentioned, there is no modern equivalent.

However, if you are looking to buy, the 80A was one, if not the only, horn Conn made for almost 50 years, with very little changes in the design or bore size. I recently bought/sold a 80A from 1935 that had very low mileage and played great. So finding a vintage one in good to excellent condition is fairly easily done. Even from the 1920s they show up in reasonably good condition.

If the valves are in decent shape they are never stuffy. With that big bore size (.485) they are free-blowing horns.
_________________
Cornets:
Selmer model #43
Selmer Concept
Baldwin Custom (Blessing Artist stencil)
1923 Buescher shepherd's crook
1880 F. Besson Paris
Trumpets:
1931 Cleveland Greyhound
1935 Olds French model

razeontherock · Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:59 pm Post subject:

I don;t mean to muck up your thread, but your link pops up the most amazing array of supposedly "related" videos - from sailing across the ocean doing 25 knots in 23 knots of breeze, to Pops with Billie Holiday, to Faddis' Hornucopia ... to THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwZiJAFWWfw&feature=related

nieuwguyski · Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject:

An 80A Victor, in good condition, is a great horn. No worries about stuffiness -- they have a .485" bore... yet they're not the lung-suckers you might think from that number.

As far as intonation goes, they have one (and only one) vintage quirk. The third valve slide is slightly long, resulting in a low D that's in tune, a low C# that's a bit sharp, and 2-3 valve combos that are a little low.

I have seen pictures of 80A's with well-done third slide conversions, reversing one of the slide tubes and adding a finger ring. If such a conversion was combined with shortening the slide length a bit, the intonation tendencies of an 80A would be more comfortable for someone used to modern horns.
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J. Notso Nieuwguyski

delano · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:11 am Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:35 am Post subject:

GREAT information, guys, thanks!

One last question, then. I play medium bore trumpets. How would I compensate for that on the larger-bored Conn cornet? Thanks in advance.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

delano · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:39 am Post subject:

I am not sure. I play two largebore (0.483 = 11.75 mm) trumpets, a Yamaha 6345 and a Selmer B700. They are completely different instruments. The Selmer is very free blowing, I used the Warburton 7 and the NY bb on it but the Selmer plays better with a heavy mp so I changed to a Yamaha 11B4GP. That mp has a semi-narrow bb and relatively a small throat. That's ideal for these kind of freeblowing trumpets. But my Yamaha trumpet, which plays a little bit like a Bach 37, has a narrow belltaper and my Warburton 7 bb feels too restrictive so this trumpet needs a bigger bb.
The 80A is a very open, freeblowing instrument. By using a smaller bb (the Kanstul made custom bb that I have is a copy of the vintage Conn 4 cornet bb) you can give the 80A some resistance. I prefer instruments with little resistance and by which the resistance is only in the beginning of the instrument, in the mp and maybe in the leadpipe.
You have to try things for yourself but I think you can do a lot with backbores and throats.

rockford · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:43 am Post subject:

Rumor is that Conn-Selmer is working on a re-creation of Bach Strad cornet #620 that Bix bought new in Feb. of 1927. .462 bore, 106 bell and 102 leadpipe. Bix used a Bach #7 mouthpiece with it.
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

Dale Proctor · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject:

Bix's Bach

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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham

tom turner · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject:

rockford · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject:

kehaulani · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject:

You guys are too much!

I guess the most logical thing is simply to get one and work from there.
So Tom - why don't you send me yours so I can try it out and see if that's what I really want to play. I'll be sure to take good care of it and to return it. Uh, sure. Uh, I'll return it. Yeah, that's what I'll do. I'll return it.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

MattC · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Dec 2009 Posts: 511

nieuwguyski · Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:33 pm Post subject:

GordonH · Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:18 am Post subject:

I noticed recently that a lot of the older NY bach cornets are of narrower bore and have smaller bells than the current 181 model which has a 37 bell. Its interesting how this larger configuration has been arrived at =- possibly to compete with trumpets. I like long model cornets to have that narrower bore and smaller tone. It makes them sound a bit more intimate.
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Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.

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