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Realistic Expectations for Comeback Player


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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:48 pm    Post subject: Realistic Expectations for Comeback Player Reply with quote

Hey all, A little bit of background and then I'll get to the meat of the post

Currently 30 years old, Former High School player (never really that great honestly) that got the urge to play again. Never stopped listening to my favorite players (MF, Paul Cacia, Wayne Bergeron, Bill Chase), but life got in the way for a while... A Long while.

In any event my question was really what those who have "come back" to playing have seen in terms of their development. I am currently about 1 month back in and am having tons of fun, but also frustration also at my endurance and lack of range development, although I do understand these will come with time and practice, but was curious what others experienced in terms of getting these back. Ultimately I'd love to be able to play in a band, and get my range up to a solid Double C. I have little to no taste for "straight jazz" and only really desire to play MF style music if that helps in determining how long things might take.

Currently I have 4 days a week I can practice for sure. Sometimes I can get some time in on the other days, but with my job and my other obligations, schedules of my other house members practicing is not always possible every day. I see people on this board, usually in school, getting 1-4 hours a day of practice... Unfortunately that is just not possible in my scenario.

Practice routine is usually: Warm up, Arbans/Schlausberg, and then fun tunes I want to play. Some times 30 minutes, some times an hour depending on endurance and range that day.

Thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to post and help out.
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mrsemman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back,

As a Comeback player of four years, the first recommendation would be to get a teacher, even on Skype. I personally found that what I learned when I first took to the trumpet was wrong (lip roll and tongue behind upper teeth). Even when I started my comeback, my teacher was reluctant to correct embouchure problems, which resulted in continuing problems in range and endurance.

What can you expect? That depends upon you, and the abilities that you wish to improve upon. That is why a teacher is important. They can not only evaluate your present abilities, but perscribe studies to practice to enhance and develop the abilities you wish to have.

Good luck,

Gary [/u]
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started back nine years ago. I'm still no better than a decent high school kid.

It's a process. You practice and learn and progress and hopefully you enjoy doing that.

Patience is all.

Tom
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Comeback
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have a "Comeback Players" area you may want to check out. I will echo Gary's and Tom's remarks concerning expectations. If you are not intending to make your living with the trumpet, I suggest you remember that you are doing this for fun. Good instruction, intelligent practice, and persistence are some of the keys to advancing as a trumpet playing musician. Some mouthpiece buzzing on days when you cannot practice might be helpful. Listening a lot to the players you want to emulate, especially on days you cannot practice, might be helpful too.

Jim
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gbdeamer
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 5:39 am    Post subject: Re: Realistic Expectations for Comeback Player Reply with quote

Lonnie123 wrote:
Hey all, A little bit of background and then I'll get to the meat of the post

Currently 30 years old, Former High School player (never really that great honestly) that got the urge to play again. Never stopped listening to my favorite players (MF, Paul Cacia, Wayne Bergeron, Bill Chase), but life got in the way for a while... A Long while.

In any event my question was really what those who have "come back" to playing have seen in terms of their development. I am currently about 1 month back in and am having tons of fun, but also frustration also at my endurance and lack of range development, although I do understand these will come with time and practice, but was curious what others experienced in terms of getting these back. Ultimately I'd love to be able to play in a band, and get my range up to a solid Double C. I have little to no taste for "straight jazz" and only really desire to play MF style music if that helps in determining how long things might take.

Currently I have 4 days a week I can practice for sure. Sometimes I can get some time in on the other days, but with my job and my other obligations, schedules of my other house members practicing is not always possible every day. I see people on this board, usually in school, getting 1-4 hours a day of practice... Unfortunately that is just not possible in my scenario.

Practice routine is usually: Warm up, Arbans/Schlausberg, and then fun tunes I want to play. Some times 30 minutes, some times an hour depending on endurance and range that day.

Thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to post and help out.


If you weren't a great player to begin with and you only practice for 30 minutes 4 days a week then I'd say your goals are a bit unrealistic.

Being able to play lead on Maynard charts and having a usable double C requires LOTS of playing time and lots of skill.

It would be more realistic to expect to be able to play as well as you used to.
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deleted_user_680e93b
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Realistic Expectations for Comeback Player Reply with quote

Lonnie123 wrote:
Hey all, A little bit of background and then I'll get to the meat of the post

Currently 30 years old, Former High School player (never really that great honestly) that got the urge to play again. Never stopped listening to my favorite players (MF, Paul Cacia, Wayne Bergeron, Bill Chase), but life got in the way for a while... A Long while.

In any event my question was really what those who have "come back" to playing have seen in terms of their development. I am currently about 1 month back in and am having tons of fun, but also frustration also at my endurance and lack of range development, although I do understand these will come with time and practice, but was curious what others experienced in terms of getting these back. Ultimately I'd love to be able to play in a band, and get my range up to a solid Double C. I have little to no taste for "straight jazz" and only really desire to play MF style music if that helps in determining how long things might take.

Currently I have 4 days a week I can practice for sure. Sometimes I can get some time in on the other days, but with my job and my other obligations, schedules of my other house members practicing is not always possible every day. I see people on this board, usually in school, getting 1-4 hours a day of practice... Unfortunately that is just not possible in my scenario.

Practice routine is usually: Warm up, Arbans/Schlausberg, and then fun tunes I want to play. Some times 30 minutes, some times an hour depending on endurance and range that day.

Thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to post and help out.


Lonnie,
realistic expectations can be as high as you want them to be, but your story sounds like lots of others in these forums, I was a come backer after more than 20 years off the horn. There are somethings i do better now and there are some things i did better when i played in college. the reason some people get great and some really never do is discipline and commitment. when "life gets in the way" or whatever many of us call it, it is a clear indication that we are not committed enough to really strive for the top. That being said you can still get very good with the right amount of correct playing and work. You need to find what works for you. If you weren't very good in high school, ask yourself why? What was stopping you then. Was it a bad embouchure, etc. Or just a lack of desire to put in the work. I had a poor embouchure, i changed it and have loads of fun now playing R&B stuff with a few bands. Playing music on any instrument for most of us here is about going out and having fun, joining a local band or two or maybe playing with a community band. Make it fun mostly, it's a friggin hard instrument that can be a bear sometimes, but overall its a blast to play. If you have 4 days a week to practice, with the correct approach you should be flying high in no time. Good Luck !!

regards,

tom
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice so far everyone.

I am looking for a teacher in my area currently, so I hopefully will have that going for me shortly, and even have a possibility to play in a local band as a low chair position.

Back in high school I had little to no commitment to it, I knew I wasn't going in to music so I never practiced. All in all I wouldn't say I was a "bad" player, I just never had the drive to excel at it, which I actually have more of now than I did back then. I am more committed now to actually improving my playing, instead of just showing up to class and playing whatever we are playing that week.

Perhaps keeping a mouthpiece in the car or something would add to the time I would at least be able to use the muscles involved in playing?? How does that sound?
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Realistic Expectations for Comeback Player Reply with quote

Lonnie123 wrote:

Currently 30 years old, Former High School player (never really that great honestly) that got the urge to play again. Never stopped listening to my favorite players (MF, Paul Cacia, Wayne Bergeron, Bill Chase), but life got in the way for a while... A Long while.


At 30, that's not that long a while. I got back into it a bit at 36, and then again at 41.

Lonnie123 wrote:

In any event my question was really what those who have "come back" to playing have seen in terms of their development.


This comes down to 2 issues: one is natural ability, and the other is instruction that is appropriate for how you naturally play. (Or rather, how you should naturally play, which is somewhat different for every individual)

I have a certain amount of natural ability, and that brought me to a certain level of proficiency pretty quickly when I first started playing. Then no real progress past that point, no matter how much I practiced or who I studied under. That recipe for burnout found me taking it out of the case only to perform, which I could still do if I had a lengthy "warm-up," which was really just a practice session. So the only reason I don't consider myself a comeback player is I never got so far away from the horn that I couldn't perform on it, even though there have been at least 15 years when I only took it out of the case a few times all year.

I finally found 2 different teachers with some understanding of the mechanics that work for me, which has enabled me to progress. Much more fun! I encountered both those schools of thought here on TH, with Doc Reinhardt being the one who had it all together, so long ago. I do believe his systemic teaching would figure out what anyone should be doing, and enable anyone to progress to their potential, with a teacher knowledgeable in that system.

Lonnie123 wrote:

Currently I have 4 days a week I can practice for sure. Sometimes I can get some time in on the other days, but with my job and my other obligations, schedules of my other house members practicing is not always possible every day.


Reinhardt developed the "trio of daily calisthenics," which his students have since expanded into a "quartet." Off-the-horn exercises that I use for exactly your purpose here. I think you could develop like this very well; arguably better this way than by practicing alone.

Lonnie123 wrote:

Practice routine is usually: Warm up, Arbans/Schlausberg


*Ahem* "Schlossberg." Let's not make Max roll over in his grave The third book of the trumpet player's Bible is Clarke. Do you have one? If not, David Hickman has all of Clarke's books in one binding, which I bought. GREAT resource, at an unbeatable price.

The moderator of the Reinhardt forum has "The Reinhardt Routines" for like $15, which would seriously help you about now, or soon. Go through the different routines and discover what you suck at. Fun, right? Seriously, it might take years to see much progress on some of the warm-ups he used, but it goes a LONG way towards turning into a well-rounded player!! And many folks here (including me) have raved about using his book Focal Point. The best trumpet investment I ever made was the $35 for his Encyclopedia of the Pivot System.
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Pops
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had thousands of comeback players and some learned lots of new physical actions, practiced 4 times as much as they used to and went a long way. Some make their entire living playing now.

The problem is that if you were not good and you practice playing the same way physically and limit the time to 2 hours a week... Well you severely limit what you could do.

There is what you could do with great training and lots of practice and what will happen with average teaching and little practice.

Your goals require a great teacher and lots of practice. Seriously.
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Realistic Expectations for Comeback Player Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:


I have a certain amount of natural ability, and that brought me to a certain level of proficiency pretty quickly when I first started playing. Then no real progress past that point, no matter how much I practiced or who I studied under.

I finally found 2 different teachers with some understanding of the mechanics that work for me, which has enabled me to progress. Much more fun! I encountered both those schools of thought here on TH, with Doc Reinhardt being the one who had it all together, so long ago. I do believe his systemic teaching would figure out what anyone should be doing, and enable anyone to progress to their potential, with a teacher knowledgeable in that system.


I feel like this is where I am about now. With the exception of endurance and a few notes less range, I am probably back to the skill level I had back in HS, but have not made much progress beyond that while practicing at home. Slooowly I suppose, but not much.

Quote:


Reinhardt developed the "trio of daily calisthenics," which his students have since expanded into a "quartet." Off-the-horn exercises that I use for exactly your purpose here. I think you could develop like this very well; arguably better this way than by practicing alone.

[quote="Lonnie123"]
Practice routine is usually: Warm up, Arbans/Schlausberg

*Ahem* "Schlossberg." Let's not make Max roll over in his grave The third book of the trumpet player's Bible is Clarke. Do you have one? If not, David Hickman has all of Clarke's books in one binding, which I bought. GREAT resource, at an unbeatable price.


I knew I was going to misspell that... All I had to do was turn around and look too.

The daily calisthenics look very doable, I will begin incorporating those. Thanks a bunch for that info.

I do not have Clarkes book, I will look into getting it.

Quote:
The moderator of the Reinhardt forum has "The Reinhardt Routines" for like $15, which would seriously help you about now, or soon. Go through the different routines and discover what you suck at. Fun, right? Seriously, it might take years to see much progress on some of the warm-ups he used, but it goes a LONG way towards turning into a well-rounded player!! And many folks here (including me) have raved about using his book Focal Point. The best trumpet investment I ever made was the $35 for his Encyclopedia of the Pivot System.


Just to clarify it sounds like you are recommending to get all three books, all of which are written by Reinhardt, and their order of importance might be:

- Reinhardt Routines

- Encyclopedia of the Pivot System

- Focal Point

Pops, I also am currently looking in my area for an instructor as you mentioned. I am going to try and sneak in an hour a day, 4 days a week of practice, which I may split up into two 30 minute sessions.

Again, I do really appreciate everyones opinions, experience, and advice here and I will keep you posted in the future about how things are going.
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, do you guys recommend Skype based lessons, and if so do you know of any teachers who could best help with my goals?
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roynj
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lonnie123 wrote:
Also, do you guys recommend Skype based lessons, and if so do you know of any teachers who could best help with my goals?


Yes. There are a number of excellent teachers out there who could help you greatly in a skype lesson framework.

Also, I highly recommend that you join a community band as soon as possible. Don't wait until you become "good enough". Play to the best of your ability and the band will give you plenty of inspiration to practice and gain in your skill set. Don't worry so much at this point about trying to play high notes because that isn't likely to happen for years. At first, just get the notes in the staff under your fingers, and learn to play with a good sound. This is easier said than done and getting some lessons will save you literally months (if not years) of time toward regaining your playing abilities.
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

roynj wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Also, do you guys recommend Skype based lessons, and if so do you know of any teachers who could best help with my goals?


Yes. There are a number of excellent teachers out there who could help you greatly in a skype lesson framework.

Also, I highly recommend that you join a community band as soon as possible. Don't wait until you become "good enough". Play to the best of your ability and the band will give you plenty of inspiration to practice and gain in your skill set. Don't worry so much at this point about trying to play high notes because that isn't likely to happen for years. At first, just get the notes in the staff under your fingers, and learn to play with a good sound. This is easier said than done and getting some lessons will save you literally months (if not years) of time toward regaining your playing abilities.


Great!

I actually am set to join a local band in 2 weeks. I have let them know my status and they are going to try me out in the 3rd chair, which I think would be a great place to start off.
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jungledoc
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lonnie123 wrote:
Also, do you guys recommend Skype based lessons, and if so do you know of any teachers who could best help with my goals?

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129926
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jungledoc wrote:
Lonnie123 wrote:
Also, do you guys recommend Skype based lessons, and if so do you know of any teachers who could best help with my goals?

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129926


Awesome, thanks for doing that leg work for me. I will likely take up one or more of these offers.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

expectations can be moderately high don't worry about that. pops above will give you skype lessons. he's good for straightening out your embouchure and you won't need more than a lesson here and there.
4 days where you have freedom to practice is ample. on days where you will bother other people, have a cornet or pocket trumpet and do a light workout in the car. i tend to like that better than practice mutes, they're good but i only use 'em when there is no other option. one day a week you can take off for rest so you can weave the practicalities together.
if you like the instrument there is no reason you shouldn't play.
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jungledoc
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As another comeback player, I've also wondered how judge my progress, and what to expect in terms of progress. It's not that I'm competitive (and I'm not, really) and want to compare myself to others. And I'm not really in a big hurry, since I only ever intend to play for my own pleasure, or maybe for family and friends, stuff at church, etc.

For me, the teacher answers that issue. As long as I'm completing the assigned material each lesson by the time of the next lesson to my teacher's satisfaction, I know I'm making progress, and that's good enough for me.
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
expectations can be moderately high don't worry about that. pops above will give you skype lessons. he's good for straightening out your embouchure and you won't need more than a lesson here and there.
4 days where you have freedom to practice is ample. on days where you will bother other people, have a cornet or pocket trumpet and do a light workout in the car. i tend to like that better than practice mutes, they're good but i only use 'em when there is no other option. one day a week you can take off for rest so you can weave the practicalities together.
if you like the instrument there is no reason you shouldn't play.


Playing in the car is brilliant! I never thought of that. On the days I work I come home at 1AM so playing after that is a no go since my wife wakes up at goes to bed at ~9pm and gets up at 5am to go to work... But playing in the car late at night when I have time might be the best option on those days.

Great idea. This will likely expand the days I can practice to 6 quite easily.
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Lonnie123
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jungledoc wrote:
As another comeback player, I've also wondered how judge my progress, and what to expect in terms of progress. It's not that I'm competitive (and I'm not, really) and want to compare myself to others. And I'm not really in a big hurry, since I only ever intend to play for my own pleasure, or maybe for family and friends, stuff at church, etc.

For me, the teacher answers that issue. As long as I'm completing the assigned material each lesson by the time of the next lesson to my teacher's satisfaction, I know I'm making progress, and that's good enough for me.


A player friend of mine said to get "benchmark pieces", which are songs that are JUUUST out of your range or ability. As you practice and play You should find yourself getting slightly better and better at it, until eventually it becomes routine and easy. At which point you get another piece that is just slightly out of your ability again.

Not trying to be a beginner giving advice here, that is what an experienced friend said for me to do, which has been working in terms of feedback and letting me know if I am actually getting better or just spinning my wheels.
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Pops
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jungledoc wrote:
As another comeback player, I've also wondered how judge my progress, and what to expect in terms of progress.


A pro player who retires and makes a comeback knows what to expect. They have been on top before and have already seen a map.

The average comeback player has no clue. They don't know how far they could really go and they don't know how much a little change could jump start their progress. They simply don't know what is really holding them back and what are merely symptoms of the real problems.

If you are doing things correctly then you make noticeable progress weekly.
Leave out 1 or more tools or practice poorly or the wrong material and you could grind to a stop.

If you don't expect change then you aren't likely to get it, but you have to put some time into it and practice smartly.
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