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VetPsychWars
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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 Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:26 am Post subject: Cornet in Bach Double Trumpet Case |
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Has anyone tried to carry a cornet and a trumpet in a Bach double trumpet case? Does it work without issues? Did you need to fill in the empty space?
Since I've resigned myself to the fact that I won't be able to restore the case to my grandfather's trumpet, and I'm getting the matching cornet restored, I could keep them together in one of those unlabeled Bach double trumpet cases and nail a Buescher nameplate to it. But I'm a little wary of how the cornet would fare in that case. I think it would be ok, but better safe than sorry. 
If you have a suggestion for another unlabeled Gladstone case that will fit both, or complementary cornet and trumpet cases (considering Kanstul), that would be nice, too.
Thanks!
Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Tom
Since the valve blocks are the same height on my Bach trumpet and 184ML cornet, I thought that I would try my cornet in the trumpet slot of my Bach flugel/trumpet case, for the Brass Band gig on which I doubled on flugel and cornet.
I was very surprised to find that it didn't fit primarily because of the bell flare, not fitting. I have a Bach trumpet with a 37 bell, and it led me to wondering whether the 43 or 72 bell would fit in this case, if the Bach 184ML bell didn't.
Obviously mine isn't a double trumpet case, but I just wanted you to bear this in mind. I have never seen a Bach double trumpet case, so it may be of a completely different design regarding the trumpet slot, than my older flugel/trumpet case with a blue interior.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9373
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:36 am Post subject: |
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None of my cornets will fit in a Bach double (or quad) case properly. They are too tall and will only fit turned upside-down. I don't do that because the horn is then resting on the valve buttons and the bell, and the bottom of these cases have very little padding.
I know that this seems counter-intuitive, since the valve blocks are all about the same height, but it's even true with my Bach trumpet and cornet, which have the same size valve blocks. It has to do with the shape of the horn and the position of the bell flare.
That said, they are all shorter cornets, so a longer, "American-wrap" cornet may fit ok. Unfortunately, I don't have one to test the fitment for you. If I remember correctly, your Buescher cornet is sort of in-between a short and American-wrap cornet.
EDIT: As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so I just took this quickie photo to illustrate what I'm talking about...see how much higher the cornet bell flare rides than the trumpet one does? The case won't come closer than about 1.5" of closing.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham
Last edited by Dale Proctor on Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
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VetPsychWars
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Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:44 am Post subject: |
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The bell on the 400 trumpet and cornet are identical, and the horns are the same height.
Here's a picture of the two together.
Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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Dale Proctor
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Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9373
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Same with my two Bachs. The problem is the cornet sits straight up in the case, while the trumpet bell is long enough that the horn rests at an angle, letting the bell flare go to the bottom of the case.
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"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Louise Finch
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Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | None of my cornets will fit in a Bach double (or quad) case properly. They are too tall and will only fit turned upside-down. I don't do that because the horn is then resting on the valve buttons and the bell, and the bottom of these cases have very little padding.
I know that this seems counter-intuitive, since the valve blocks are all about the same height, but it's even true with my Bach trumpet and cornet, which have the same size valve blocks. It has to do with the shape of the horn and the position of the bell flare.
That said, they are all shorter cornets, so a longer, "American-wrap" cornet may fit ok. Unfortunately, I don't have one to test the fitment for you. If I remember correctly, your Buescher cornet is sort of in-between a short and American-wrap cornet.
EDIT: As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so I just took this quickie photo to illustrate what I'm talking about...see how much higher the cornet bell flare rides than the trumpet one does? The case won't come closer than about 1.5" of closing.
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Hi Dale
A great way of illustrating the issue. I didn't really think of the bell height when I tried my Bach 184ML in my older interior style blue plush flugel/trumpet case, as I put my Bach trumpet in this case bell first, and store it with the bell tilted down a bit. The top of the case, has a deep padded area above the bell and leadpipe ends of the trumpet and a gap in the middle, so if the cornet bell had fitted in, I reckon that the case would have shut.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | Same with my two Bachs. The problem is the cornet sits straight up in the case, while the trumpet bell is long enough that the horn rests at an angle, letting the bell flare go to the bottom of the case. |
Hi Dale
You have put what I was trying to say much more clearly. The trumpet goes in at angle, so that the bell flare goes to the bottom of the case. I've had another try with my Bach 184ML, and I am wrong, it is nothing to do with the bell flare (the bell shaped slot in my case, is created one side by the shape of the non padded double mouthpiece slot, so doesn't have much give, so I thought it was the issue), rather that owing to the shorter distance between the bell and valve block, the third valve bottoms out before the bell is in. I really think that Tom will have the same issue, as my Bach trumpet and cornet are the same height when upright (my Yamaha cornet is taller).
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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VetPsychWars
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 7196
Location: Greenfield WI
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:01 am Post subject: |
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I note that my case is not exactly like Dale's either. Guess I'll have to wait to get the cornet back (it's with Charlie right now) to be sure!
Tom
_________________
1950 Buescher Lightweight 400 Trumpet
1949 Buescher 400 Trumpet
1939 Buescher 400 Cornet
GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 |
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RandyTX
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have one of the newer Bach cases that (I think) came originally with the Artisan horns. A lot of padding inside, and not a lot of space, but a very tight fit around the horn.
Because of the way the 'outline' is molded, none of my cornets will fit inside. There is a cutout in the bottom of each slot for the valve block to drop into the middle of, and the protective foam around each side of the pistons will hit the curved leadpipe on a cornet, preventing it from dropping into the slot.
That case is probably a lot different than most Bach double cases though.
Works great with larger trumpets, seems very protective, but perhaps over large in overall outside dimensions. |
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12664
Location: Gardena, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | I have one of the newer Bach cases that (I think) came originally with the Artisan horns. A lot of padding inside, and not a lot of space, but a very tight fit around the horn.
Because of the way the 'outline' is molded, none of my cornets will fit inside. There is a cutout in the bottom of each slot for the valve block to drop into the middle of, and the protective foam around each side of the pistons will hit the curved leadpipe on a cornet, preventing it from dropping into the slot.
That case is probably a lot different than most Bach double cases though.
Works great with larger trumpets, seems very protective, but perhaps over large in overall outside dimensions. |
Can the bottom blocks be moved? It would seem like a good idea for a company that sells both trumpets and cornets. |
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| LittleRusty wrote: | | RandyTX wrote: | I have one of the newer Bach cases that (I think) came originally with the Artisan horns. A lot of padding inside, and not a lot of space, but a very tight fit around the horn.
Because of the way the 'outline' is molded, none of my cornets will fit inside. There is a cutout in the bottom of each slot for the valve block to drop into the middle of, and the protective foam around each side of the pistons will hit the curved leadpipe on a cornet, preventing it from dropping into the slot.
That case is probably a lot different than most Bach double cases though.
Works great with larger trumpets, seems very protective, but perhaps over large in overall outside dimensions. |
Can the bottom blocks be moved? It would seem like a good idea for a company that sells both trumpets and cornets. |
I'm sure if you wanted to cut up the case and modify it, that could be done. They're molded in and covered in some sort of "velour" lining.
BTW, the Protec Combo Flugel/Trumpet case has the same issue. The mechanics are slightly different, but the way the valve block is held in place won't fit a cornet either. I was hoping I could get a cornet/flugel thing happening for brass band that way, but it didn't work out. |
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ghelbig
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 May 2011
Posts: 908
Location: Reno, NV
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Cornet in Bach Double Trumpet Case |
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| VetPsychWars wrote: | | If you have a suggestion for another unlabeled Gladstone case that will fit both, or complementary cornet and trumpet cases (considering Kanstul), that would be nice, too. |
I'm also looking for a Trumpet/Cornet case. Perhaps a little different because I have a long (American) cornet.
If I can't find one, I may build one - get the polystyrene liners from appropriate cases and fab a frame around the two.
Gary. |
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musicman0097
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Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 601
Location: SF Bay Area, California
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| Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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I would say it might depend on the wrap. I used to put my Conn Director Cornet in it to store it.
Matthew
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Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Hi
I don't believe that there is a hard/semi-hard case on the market designed specifically to hold a trumpet and cornet or flugel and cornet, only cases that have the ability to be configured in various ways, or more gig bag style cases. Maybe I am wrong. I would be interested in hearing about any cases of this nature.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Dale Proctor
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 9373
Location: Heart of Dixie
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Yes Lou, the only thing I've found that works for carrying a short cornet and trumpet is something like the Protec iPac, which is tall enough for a cornet. I bought a triple to give me room enough for two horns, mutes and other things (per one of your recent threads).
_________________
"Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | Yes Lou, the only thing I've found that works for carrying a short cornet and trumpet is something like the Protec iPac, which is tall enough for a cornet. I bought a triple to give me room enough for two horns, mutes and other things (per one of your recent threads). |
Hi Dale
Thank you very much, I'll check it out.
Do you or anyone else have any idea of a case which will hold a flugel and cornet, or even a trumpet, cornet and flugel?
Thanks
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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RandyTX
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Louise Finch wrote: | Do you or anyone else have any idea of a case which will hold a flugel and cornet, or even a trumpet, cornet and flugel?
Thanks
Lou |
Theoretically a Coyote 2.5 (with one of the optional taller lids, depending upon the bell size of your flugel) could do that.
It would be overly long possibly, it's really built for a 2 full size trumpets and a picc, or perhaps a Bb and a flugel, etc. If you look at the videos on the Torpedo Bags website you can see some demos of the layouts.
You could readjust the internal pads (it comes with more than you need so you can play around) to use a cornet instead of a trumpet inside pretty easily. My flugel has a quite large bell, and the lid for the Coyote to accept mine seems way too bulky (in my opinion) or I would probably be using that.
Truthfully, it probably would be a better solution to get that lid for the Coyote than what I'm using currently, but I don't need to carry my flugel with anything else often enough (right now) to justify an additional lid. The majority of the time my Coyote has a Bb and C trumpet inside, sometimes with a Picc. I don't currently own a shepherd's crook cornet so I can't test if the shorter (and taller) wrap would be a problem for the lowest profile lid that I ordered. I suspect it would fit, but it might require the taller one. I just to know.
A bach long cornet will fit in no problem though. |
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Louise Finch
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012
Posts: 5467
Location: Suffolk, England
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | | Louise Finch wrote: | Do you or anyone else have any idea of a case which will hold a flugel and cornet, or even a trumpet, cornet and flugel?
Thanks
Lou |
Theoretically a Coyote 2.5 (with one of the optional taller lids, depending upon the bell size of your flugel) could do that.
It would be overly long possibly, it's really built for a 2 full size trumpets and a picc, or perhaps a Bb and a flugel, etc. If you look at the videos on the Torpedo Bags website you can see some demos of the layouts.
You could readjust the internal pads (it comes with more than you need so you can play around) to use a cornet instead of a trumpet inside pretty easily. My flugel has a quite large bell, and the lid for the Coyote to accept mine seems way too bulky (in my opinion) or I would probably be using that.
Truthfully, it probably would be a better solution to get that lid for the Coyote than what I'm using currently, but I don't need to carry my flugel with anything else often enough (right now) to justify an additional lid. The majority of the time my Coyote has a Bb and C trumpet inside, sometimes with a Picc. I don't currently own a shepherd's crook cornet so I can't test if the shorter (and taller) wrap would be a problem for the lowest profile lid that I ordered. I suspect it would fit, but it might require the taller one. I just to know.
A bach long cornet will fit in no problem though. |
Hi RandyTX
Thank you very much. I'll check these out.
Take Care
Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Bucaneer61
Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 230
Location: Buckhannon, WV
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| Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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I own the coyote and for a time I carried, from back to front order, a Selmer Radial Bb with bell facing left; a Radial C with bell facing right AND a Getzen shepherds crook Capri cornet with bell facing right. The cornet bell was about 1/2 inch away from the C bell. All this with the Snap lid. YMMV
Michael
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Selmer Radial Bb ML - Jan., 1972
Selmer Radial C XL - Jan., 1972
Getzen 580S cornet - c. 1973
Blessing Artist Flugelhorn, rose brass bell
Accent Picc by B & S
Conn 28B Concert Grand Bb - 1925
Martin Handcraft Imperial - 1937 |
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