Orchestral Players Embouchure

[trickg]

I got to thinking about it today and I think that it is curious that when talking about embouchure development and who to look toward, most of the time the posters refer to people like Jerry Callet, Bill Adams, Arturo, Harry James, Maynard Ferguson and other jazz players and not so much toward the orchestral players of the world. Has anyone ever really mentioned Adolph (Bud) Herseth's and other pricipal trumpeters' embouchures?

These guys are the ultimate in trumpet sound. They have sound that is full bodied, has a solid core, and has a real ability to project. They also have to articulate cleanly and be very accurate. From the top of their range to the bottom of their range, these guys have awesome sounds.

Are there more Jazz types than legit types here? I just thought that I'd toss that one out there and see where it goes.
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Patrick Gleason
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[NCTrumpet]

From what I have read, Bud Herseth played a 7C before his car (?) accident in the 50's. Busted up his chops pretty bad. In his efforts to get back to the horn (about six weeks later) a 1C was the only thing that could produce the sound he had before the accident. Scar tissue made this necessary. So, I believe that Bud couldn't give a damn about his embouchure as long as he was hearing what he wanted. I'm convinced that's the only reason he was able to continue, at least immediately, after the accident. His playing wasn't in his chops at all-it was in his mind and ears.

(I can be so full of crap sometimes)

I also heard that Andre said that nowhere but in America are guys so worried about their embouchures. He wonders why we can't just pick up the horn and blow (big paraphrase). I'm sure he's referring to me.

Grins,

JC.

[ChopsMcgraw]

I've heard that orchestral players "cover" their sound more, like a more closed embouchure?



ChopsMcgraw

[Pat]

If you are interested, there are a series of photos of the embouchures of Herseth and the other members of the Chicago Symphony brass section (circa. 1960) in the Farkas book "The Art of Brass Playing." The trumpet players also included Chicowicz, Kaderebek and Nashan.(did I get the spellings of any of those names right?) One of the pictures for each of the players is with the player using an embouchure visualizer, so you get a good look at it. ---I have read that the pictures were once given unidentified to some brass instructors who pointed out problems with the various embouchures.----Go figure.

One word of caution if you get the book, Farkas' concept of the flat chin (at least for trumpet players) has come under criticism in a lot of quarters, so as with everything you have to be careful about adopting any of Farkas' prescriptions without some guidance.

[_Don Herman]

An interesting tidbit about the Farkas pictures is that the tpt line appears to be all 50-50 upper/lower lip. The horns and trombones vary more, and of course there's Jacobs' famous S setting!

My own very limited experience tells me that to produce good orchestral sound and meet the demands of the job you must have excellent good ears, suberb mental visulization of the sound you want, and an efficient embouchure which allows you to play forever with perfect pitch, tone etc. whether playing the first note of the concert or after resting a bazillion measures. (OK, maybe "bazillion" is a slight exaggeration, but EVERYBODY exaggerates! )

If you can make it in this setting, you've figured out how to play with lots of air, minimal pressure, great sound, excellent control, fantastic technique, etc. I'm finding it orders of magnitude more difficult than the jazz/soft rock and simple hymns I usually play. One piece we're working on now has me coming in after a long rest on a concert B over the staff. It's at the top of a final run, so must be perfectly placed (time and pitch). After holding and diminishing a few measures, I get a coupla' beats before having to playing a fast little run starting on B below the staff.

Not to mention all the multiple tounging, octave-plus intervals etc. I'm playing third and sometimes asst. principal; the third part, while sometimes (not alwyas) lower, is harder because you're not on the melody and may play with the 'bones one measure, horns the next, and even (good grief!) the violins. One section has me playing the melody "solo" with the violins (and it stays over the staff the whole bloody time) while the 1st and 2nd trumpets are playing some rythmic counter melody thing on who-knows-what beats, in 7/8. At least I've got simple church stuff Sunday so I can regain some sanity (as if!)

Not sure this all goes here, but me 'at's off to the orchestral players among us!

Best wishes - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

[big brian]

...

[trickg]

1001...2...3...4, 1002...2...3...4... Again, a bit of an exageration, but in the little bit of Orchestra experience that I have, that seems to be the case.

As a player in a Rock band, I am constantly playing and I have to play in what is my upper register for long periods of time. Granted, I don't have the kind of sound and control that an Orchestral player has, but would they be able to make it in that type of playing environment?
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Patrick Gleason
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"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[dbacon]

DB

[Yoinks]

Well, first you have to understand that
#1.)Bill Adam himself would tell you not to try to copy his embochure, and also, he is not a jazz teacher, what ever gave you that impression?? He teaches trumpet, no specific style, as it ought to be, and his approach is all focused on the sound, without the physical aspects at all. Yet many of his students hold the top of the top positions in the jazz, classical, and commercial trumpet industry.
#2.)Also, none of Mr. Adam's many successful classical students, like Bob Platt, would tell you to look at their embochure. If you look into their methodology, you would understand why. Also, none of the chicago school guys like Herseth, or Charlie Geyer, or Phil Smith, would tell you to copy their embochure, they would tell you to concentrate on sound, so that is why no one ever talks about their embochure's, except people who are on the outside looking in so to speak. I've never heard of anyone who attended a clinic or took a lesson from Herseth who came back and said "he said to hold my mouth like this." Herseth would probably fall over laughing at someone looking at a picture in a book of his embochure as a way to try to figure out how to play well.

[ This Message was edited by: Yoinks on 2002-02-14 20:06 ]

[John Mohan]

[John Mohan]

[walter]

[ This Message was edited by: walter on 2002-09-20 07:09 ]

[trickg]

Wow! Thanks for all of the great posts folks. I never expected this thread to go like this and the information that has come through has been wonderful.

A theme that has really presented itself in this thread is that the mental part of trumpet playing is by far more important than the physical part and that mechanics of the jaw, tongue, facial muscles and lips plays a minor role in sound production and articulation in comparison.

This being said, what are some methods that a player can use to get their head out of the game so they can stop thinking about the horn they have, the mouthpiece they are playing, how their chops are/aren't bunching and just start playing the horn.

Another question along this same line would be can a great mental mindset overcome an "inefficient" embouchure so that some of the limitations that a player may currently have become non issues?

If their are already existing threads along this same line, let me know so that I can check them out. Thanks again for the great posts!
_________________
Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler

"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP

[_Don Herman]

Walter made excellent points; same idea I had, but he did a better job of it! Walter, I'd love to see the GK bit (I seem to recall hearing it way back when, but...) so if you'd be so kind as to email it my way (dhermanjr@earthlink.net) I'd greatly appreciate it.

Patrick -- Just go peruse the Chicago Forum for more on the Mental Art of Trumpet Playing. And, buy "Song and Wind" by Brian Frederickson.
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Don Herman/Monument, CO

[ This Message was edited by: Don Herman on 2002-02-15 09:24 ]

[Pat]

Does anyone know what Jacobs, Herseth and Adam thought of the Farkas book? The approach in the book seems to be antithetical to what those gentlemen teach, and I believe jacobs was doing his research on breathing around the same time. But Jacobs and Herseth were colleagues of Farkas in the CSO and Adam was a colleague at Indiana.

[rch-tech]

I agree that you more or less develop rather than discover an embouchure. However, I do believe its possible to develop an inefficient one.
My embouchure was okay in high school and college but after putting the horn away for a while and coming back now, I find it very inefficient.
My teeth actually came in contact with my lower lip and cause a terrible pinch in my tone as I ascended. I have now moved on to developing a different embouchure more along the lines of SC. Teeth apart and I find while I need to develop some stronger muscles to get the range back, but the tone is more open and freer blowing.

[Yoinks]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, and if you ask most who were his students, Bill Adam, at least as far as trumpet, is THE person for getting away from the physical aspects of trumpet. Also, anyone in the chicago school as Chicago man talks about, although Mr. Adam takes it even further. His studio is one of the most successful ever, in all aspects of the industry. You can find a list of his students and where they are to take lessons from them on his webpage, but you will have to find a way to contact them.

[Paul.Trumpet]

I think that the moronic conclusion that an orchestra player sticks the mouthpiece on their face and "does everything with air" is completely wrong. One can only conclude those who did not suceed by accident are not playing the trumpet any more.

Their face is making an embouchure, even if they don't realise it. I was one of those 1 in 10 players whose embouchure was making playing well imposible and the advice I got from Richard Martin and Phil Parker was to sit the mouthpiece flat on the top teeth, push the lower jaw forward to meet the trumpet and close the lips before sitting the mouthpiece down. Before that I had a peachstone chin which rendered high note compression a job for my left arm to do. Afterwards I had a better control but a very bright, thin sound.

Some years later I tried relaxing the tightness in the pointed down chin and pulling the corners in to the teeth tighter and letting the horn drop a few degrees and then I was ready to play anything.

There is no substitute for a knowledgable teacher who knows what to try or can demonstrate the performance of that change to you.

If some guy can play with his tongue IN the mouthpiece then good luck to him, I've never met anyone who can do that in the last 33 years and I hope when he dies his secret goes with him. Gullible or what....

Ah, we are back onto the old "science and art" debate. "Your lips vibrate in here and its amplified into a note through the other end." How you make them vibrate seems to be your own problem.

[zachenos]

Hello All,

Much of the talk in this thread has centered around "play by sound" orchrestral players. But, there have been others who taught more specific mechanics. First person that comes to my mind is Armando Ghitalla, he was a great player and a great teacher who wasn't afraid to try and change things with your physical set up. Just throwing out an opinion a little bit opposite of what has been said so far =)

Zach

[_Don Herman]

My experience (means my opinion, folks) with a student of Jacobs, and collected tidbits about Bill Adams and some other "learn by sound" teachers leads me to a few tentative conclusions:

(1) It works, and works extremely well, when properly applied and taught;

(2) The best teachers go beyond sound when needed to discuss and describe the underlying mechanics (chops, air, you name it) when required -- but try to keep the student's focus on the music, not the mechanics;

(3) A gifted "song and wind" teacher can analyze your playing by sound and observation (even if you aren't aware of the observation) and steer you in the right direction with appropriate exercises to correct (mechanical or otherwise) problems, and you might not know why you're doing them -- it just works, and a lot of it is mental re-alignment;

(4) A less talented teacher may hurt students by telling them to focus on sound when s/he doesn't really know what to listen for, what to observe, and how to properly guide the student to correct any problems (mechanical or otherwise) -- this teacher may not be able to describing the underlying cause and effect, or cure, like Jacobs, Adams, or my teacher.

I think some, if not all, of the problems attributed to the "song and wind" approach are caused by teachers not fully understanding the system and all the theory and science behind it (mostly invisible to the student). This is what makes me fear to teach -- the fear I won't know how to recognize, let alone correct, a real problem. OTOH, I've a great resource and friend in my teacher, not to mention the friends I've made through the years here, on TPIN, via ITG, and elsewhere. So, I'll start my son this month on cornet (he'll start band next year) and arrange for him to take my place (or, come along) on some lessons with my teacher.

I find it interesting that Mr. Callet can diagnose by phone; so can my teacher, and many of the most respected teachers. These teachers have learned to tell from the sound what the problem is likely to be with high confidence, based on years of study and practice ("practice" in the sense of e.g. practicing medicine). I think all the best teachers have/had carefully studied the mechanics, from the first natural trumpet teachers onward. It's more the approach than the knowledge that separates the camps; and, both have the less skilled or novice teachers who do not yet fully grasp the science behind the music, and haven't yet the experience to apply the science while using the music to guide a student's development.

I'd like to reach that level, but I've (needless to say, but I'm gonna' say it anyway!) a long, long way yet to travel.

A few rambling thoughts, please take with a block of salt, as usual!

May your journey be filled with music. - Don
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Don Herman/Monument, CO
"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley