How much do dents in the main tube affect playing?

rhatheway · Last edited by rhatheway on Fri May 03, 2024 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total

I mentioned that I got my original 1958 Conn Director 14A cleaned/reconditioned so that I can play it again. It has a dark, full tone that some of the newer cornets don't seem to have (they're brighter, more brassy than this cornet), so I really like how it sounds.

However, there are a couple of small dents in the main tube in the first bend where it comes back from the bell. It looks like the horn may have been set down a ltitle too hard at one point in its life, flattening the back of that first curve just a little bit.

My question: would getting those dents removed make any improvement in how easily the horns blows, or make any difference in the tone?
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Richard H
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Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

Andy Cooper · Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 7:41 am Post subject:

Maybe - maybe not - why not play it for a few months and see if you find any short comings in intonation. If you are happy with the way it plays - just leave them until you have accumulated a few more.

Rhondo · Veteran Member Joined: 22 Oct 2021 Posts: 236

Post some pictures?

huntman10 · Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 8:15 am Post subject:

Back in the early 70's when I was an undergraduate student with too many hours and too many interests, there was a tall gangly (the guy rode around on and old English racing bike with one of those high rise banana seats, never had to chain it cause no one else could manage to get up on it) doctoral candidate in advanced mathematics that played an old tuba that allegedly had been recovered from a flood down on the Pecos River. We called him "Weird Arnold", which he accepted with a wry grin.

As someone noted recently in a speech, "Not a joke. This is the truth!"

Anyway, one spring afternoon, I was in the band hall, and Arnold was seated in front of the Strobo-Conn tuner with his tuba, a slide rule, a paper tablet, a tape measure, and a fairly sizable rubber mallet.

After 30 minutes or so of playing notes, sliding his slide rule back and forth, measuring the tuba bell section, interspersed with bouts of rubbing his chin, he measured down the side of the bell, and gave the tuba a whack with the mallet, and proceeded to test his results on the Strobo-Conn.

I asked him what it was all about. He explained there was on overtone of a particular note that he was never able to get in tune. By making a not really very big dent, he suppressed that harmonic.

He actually was a pretty good player, burdened with what we call "perfect pitch", and that mathematical perception. I guess I would have to admit that it did sound better.

Having said all that, the description of your Horn's "owee" should not intrude enough to induce turbulence or metal stress at that point, which is what Weird Arnold had done.
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huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.

rhatheway · Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 11:31 am Post subject:

JayKosta

rhatheway · Posted: Fri May 03, 2024 1:30 pm Post subject:

Sounds like the general concensus is that since these are not major dents, they probably don't impact anything. I don't notice any intonation issues, plus there's no leaking spit valve corks, no pinhole leaks (there was one on the leadpipe decades ago, but my parents had that fixed when I was still a kid), and the horn has a great sound.

So that's just one of those cosmetic issues that maybe someday I'll get around to getting fixed. Or maybe not, they're part of the horn's history after all...
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A

stuartissimo

Dayton · Posted: Sat May 04, 2024 4:58 am Post subject:

I have a recent dent in one of my trumpets in the bell tubing around the first valve. I absolutely cannot discern any difference in sound, intonation, blow....I might not say the same thing if a dent of the same size was in my leadpipe or main tuning slide.

Dents are often quick, easy and inexpensive for a repair technician to remove, so I'll have this one fixed eventually, but I'm in no rush given that I cannot perceive any changes resulting from the dent.

zaferis · Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 6:27 am Post subject:

I think that the closer to the mouthpiece end of the trumpet, the more a dent has an affect on the play of the instrument. Size and location matter.
I try to imagine how the particular dent would affect the water flow (an easier visual for me) How much turbulence is it creating and how much that turbulence is continuing through the instrument. But whereas we fret about valve alignments (measuring to the thousandths of an inch), mouthpiece gap, how tight tubing bends are, placement of spit valves.. I'd say dents do matter.

As mentioned by another, an easy inexpensive repair.
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Rwwilson · Posted: Sun May 05, 2024 8:57 am Post subject:

I think that we need to consider how skilled the player is and how this will impact his perception of his horn. I see many amateur musicians playing horns with dents and other flaws that they seem to have no concerns about. On the other hand, many of the players that post in these forums seem to be able to detect the impact of very small changes, such as the valve alignment, mouthpiece gap and others as mentioned in the previous post. I will admit that, as a serious amateur, I can detect changes that cause me to favor one horn over another but fail to be able to detect changes caused by, for example, valve cap weight, mouthpiece weight or how tightly the water valve screw is tightened. If I am to believe the many reports that these things matter I have to admit that I am not sensitive enough to detect them.

DAVIDTHEWRITER · Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 9:19 am Post subject:

Similarly, I have the 1965 15A of that same legacy line. Like you said, less brassy in that era.

I worry a lot about dents in the lead pipe and anywhere BEFORE or near the valves.

Small denta after the valves, such as along the bell pipe, I worry almost none.

I think of it like a factory conveyor belt. Closer to the end is the fully formed sound?

OTOH, big or pinchy dents worry me.
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rhatheway · Posted: Mon May 06, 2024 12:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks all. Since it's on the bell side and not the leadpipe side, that's probably why I don't hear any difference, so I may get them fixed at some point, but probably not until after this concert season is over.
_________________
Richard H
------------------------------------------
Working on getting my chops back...

“Without music, life would be a mistake” ― Friedrich Nietzsche

1968 Getzen Eterna Severinsen
1958 Conn Director 14A