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How to get that ragtime sound?


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TheAverageJoe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: How to get that ragtime sound? Reply with quote

Hey, I have been pondering how some of my favorite ragtime style trumpet players get their sound. The people that I find have a significantly similar sound are Louis Armstrong and Charlie Shavers. Their playing sounds like they're using a lot of vibrato and a very loose embrochure but I cannot seem to emulate what they sound like if you guys can help me out a little that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance

-Joey
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume you mean Dixieland jazz.

It's all about sound concept and experience. At first it won't sound close at all, but in time it will get better. It also gets easier the more developed your embouchure becomes.
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swingintrpt
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They (especially Armstrong on the earlier recordings) were also playing on equipment that was radically different from what is considered standard today, and the recordings really distort their sound. Don't worry too much about trying to sound EXACTLY like them while playing live - if you work on emulating the style, the tone will begin to work itself out.

You can also work on developing extended techniques, like the growl and the plunger, to help really lock your ear onto what's going on.
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of observations (just my $0.02):

First, as noted earlier, Armstrong wasn't a "ragtime" trumpet player; really, there isn't such a thing, except in cases when brass bands adapted solo piano works (like Joplin).

I'd also quibble with the term "dixieland", which (at least in my mind) applies mostly to the revivalist movement of the 1950s and beyond. To a certain degree, it depends on what period of Armstrong's music you're talking about. I always call the 20s stuff "hot music" to distinguish it from the 50s revival stuff, myself.

Finally -- Armstrong and Shavers were from very different eras. Shavers was mostly known as a swing era player, while Armstrong's style was defined in the period that preceded.

THAT SAID...

In my opinion, it's not so much about "a lot of vibrato", but where the vibrato gets placed, and how rapid it is. Listen closely to a held note by Armstrong, and you'll hear that most of the vibrato comes on the back end of a held note.

As swingintrpt said, the recordings can be a bit misleading. Armstrong played a great deal with a clear plastic composite mute given to him (perhaps made for him?) by Jack Teagarden later in his career, and he very seldom (if at all) used plunger mute, or the growl effect for that matter. If you listen closely to Armstrong's singing, you'll hear that he plays much the way he sings.

Other folks to check out (from the early period) - Jabbo Smith, King Oliver (a mute master!), Bix (different approach altogether), Natty Dominique (very different sound from Armstrong), etc. etc.

This site can be very educational:

http://www.redhotjazz.com/
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who plays a lot of this style...I've found the answer is somewhere in between "listen to a lot of it" and equipment.

My advice? Get a King liberty and med shallow mouthpiece with a med tight backbore. You'll sound like Louis in no time flat!
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've come close to the tone by using a H&B Cleartone mute, but I haven't figured out how to produce the sound of old record scratches and wavering tone yet...
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis sounded like Louis whether he was playing that old Tonk cornet or a Selmer trumpet. It's more a matter of style and approach than of equipment, although these days a short model cornet is most often preferred. I'd listen to the early practitioners (King Oliver, Louis, Bix, along with compositions by Handy, Williams, Carmichael, etc.) for the basic style. The revival really started in the 1930's (Lu Watters, 1939), and there's a lot of good recorded material from the revival period (Watters, Bob Scobey, Turk Murphy - and that'll take you right up into the 1980's). Bunk Johnson had a revival of his own, primarily in the 1940's, and it's worth listening to him as an example of a player who was obviously trained in serious music. In my area, we're blessed with veterans of the Turk Murphy bands (Leon Oakley, Ev Farey, Bob Schulz are all still going strong, and still recording) as well as other stout players (Mike Slack on cornet; Pete Main, Robert Young, and Bob Neely are exceptional reed players worth hearing). Mostly, get out there and listen, talk to the guys who play it best while you can still find them, then go home and practice.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a reason the real cats today mostly play old instruments...


Take it from me. They're not doing it because those horns play better!
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A.N.A.Mendez
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do what louis did, 10-15 hour gigs with high Cs all night, beat your chops up so much they bleed over and over..... That's how he got that sound.... Plus, he was Louis, and we aren't.....
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My friend Jon-Erik Kellso:


Link

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solo soprano
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listen to Phil Napoleon who's background goes back to the "The Memphis Five" and other early jazz bands, he was one of the great authorities on the music and tunes generally tagged "dixieland," for want of a better name.
Since dixieland bands don't use charts, get the piano player to write out the leads to 30-40 most -often played tunes. Once you memorize them, it's easy sailing. A typical set might include such tunes as, "Original Dixieland One Step," " I Wish I Could Shimmy Like My Sister Kate," "Satanic Blues," "If I Had You," and "Runnin' Wild." Always save "Muskrat Ramble" and/or "When the Saints" for the very end, because for some reason after they're played your clients will decide they had heard all they came to hear and empty out the club. It happens every time.
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ChopsGone
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, some Dixieland bands do use charts. The Lu Watters book is pretty widely distributed, and some other bands' charts are available as well from a relative handful of sources. But if you search out such materials, you'll often find the charts to be very sketchy.
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the first few posts, knew exactly what I was going to post, and then discovered that Jeff Helgesen beat me to it.

I agree 100% with what Jeff wrote and have nothing to add.

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giakara
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry but i have a question out of the OP , i am looking for 20's/30's jazz/dance orchestra charts (2 trp , 1 bone , 3 reeds and rythm and some with vocals) did enyone now how i cant find some (free or buy) ?

Regards
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

giakara wrote:
Sorry but i have a question out of the OP , i am looking for 20's/30's jazz/dance orchestra charts (2 trp , 1 bone , 3 reeds and rythm and some with vocals) did enyone now how i cant find some (free or buy) ?

Regards


You should start a new thread on this question so as not to derail the OP's question.
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rockford
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always wondered what role the older mikes and recording equipment play in our perceptions of the 20's 30's trumpet sound. Probably live had more highs and ring in the sound? Try using a Stonelined Clear Tone mute. It seems dead on for some of the older Louis Armstrong recorded sounds.
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jazz_trpt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
Try using a Stonelined Clear Tone mute. It seems dead on for some of the older Louis Armstrong recorded sounds.


I use the Walt Johnson Gatsby mute in some applications from this period, but I'd say it (and its analog, the Clear Tone) is a little too restrictive to get the sound Armstrong got in the 20s. (Just my opinion.)

Take, for example, this old chestnut:


Link


I think he's using straight mute on the head there. Yes, the recording technology leaves him sounding a bit thin in places, but I find that you're better off being able to push for a bit of volume with the straight than to risk getting buried by the clarinet with the solotone-style mute.

That said, I bring a straight, plunger, pixie, Gatsby (solotone), and adjustable cup to any gig where I'm playing this stuff. The only thing I'm looking to add at this point is a derby (preferably metal)...

This is an interesting topic, because I think a lot of the choices we make have to do with the type of ensemble in which we're playing. I think I end up making different choices playing Hot 5/7 and Jelly Roll Morton stuff than I might make if I was playing Dukes/Dixieland or Lu Watters or Hackett/Teagarden style stuff.
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I've come close to the tone by using a H&B Cleartone mute, but I haven't figured out how to produce the sound of old record scratches and wavering tone yet...


Mister, do I have a horn for you! (chuckle chuckle, dent dent, gassy pistons, lacquer by 4-inch brush...)
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widehorn
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:15 am    Post subject: Re: How to get that ragtime sound? Reply with quote

Hey guys,
regarding the topic of Ragtime music performed with trumpet I wanted to mention that, with my 40 years experience, RAGTIME is supposed to be played different than Diexeland, Charleston or Blues.. There is some kind of unique approach rhythmically and melodically, perhaps because it was invented mostly for piano solo.
Anyhow if you have time check out some of Gabriel Rosati recordings, this guys did a few ragtimes in duo playing trumpet or french horn!!

https://www.cdbaby.com/cd/gabrielrosati7
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rockford wrote:
I've always wondered what role the older mikes and recording equipment play in our perceptions of the 20's 30's trumpet sound. Probably live had more highs and ring in the sound? Try using a Stonelined Clear Tone mute. It seems dead on for some of the older Louis Armstrong recorded sounds.


A lot of that stuff was recorded acoustically, and sometimes they did use mutes so they could get sound they could record.

I think your question will be, what did they sound like live, and how do you want to sound live?

It were me, I'd get a Buescher 10-22 with its original mouthpieces and use that. Or the equivalent.

Tom
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