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trackday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:41 am    Post subject: lazy beginner Reply with quote

I have a day job! So I come home, pop a beer, and try to get as much practise time in as possible. I'm 53, can sight read fairly well, less than a year on trumpet (from stringed background), I may do some pentatonic scales and slurs to warm up, then I play some tunes.

And I play until my lips turn to mush. And I keep playing, taking as short of a break as seems necessary. I can do this for 2 or 4 hours, sounding like a dying pup seal.

Tons of practise material is available everywhere, plus I can just make up a career's worth of excercises in my head - scales, arpegios, tounging excercises, etc.

But I really would like to get to where I can play for 2 or 4 hours without embarassing myself so. I am just kind of lazy to stick with an excercise regiment. But I need to do something now to advance to the next level. What to do?
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:53 am    Post subject: lazy beginner Reply with quote

Hello Trackday,
First hold the beer til after the practice time. I would get a Clark Techncial Studies book and start in that routine playing the articulations softly. Throw in some Irons or Colin lip flexibility studies. Get the horn off your face from time to time for a little rest and don't beat yourself to a pulp. Then see if you really need that beer.
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know this is sacreligious, but I am learning in concert pitch. I have a room full of concert pitch instruments, so I can't get myself to call a b-flat anything else. My sometimes teacher is ok with it, since I'm not going to play in the school band.

Back to the Clark Technical Studies - available in concert pitch? I am about to search online for this, and call local shops to see if I can pick one up.

And if I play the studies in concert pitch, is that just too wrong?

edit: I see some excercises are easily transposed. I'm going to pick the book up at the local band repair shop right now. Thanks!

edit again: I've got the book! sober, lol, I'm starting a new journey.


Last edited by trackday on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trackday wrote:
I know this is sacreligious, but I am learning in concert pitch. I have a room full of concert pitch instruments, so I can't get myself to call a b-flat anything else. My sometimes teacher is ok with it, since I'm not going to play in the school band.

Back to the Clark Technical Studies - available in concert pitch? I am about to search online for this, and call local shops to see if I can pick one up.

And if I play the studies in concert pitch, is that just too wrong?

edit: I see some excercises are easily transposed. I'm going to pick the book up at the local band repair shop right now. Thanks!


Wait......what? Obviously I'm missing something here, but WHY do you want to transpose things like Clark Studies, and are "......learning everything in concert pitch....." ?
Maybe just get a C trumpet?

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trackday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, must seem strange. But if I have a left hand on the keyboard and right hand on a trumpet, and I'm reading concert pitch sheet music.... Yea, I'm playing concert pitch. If I am figuring out Trombone Shorty's quirks on 'Sunny side of the street' on keyboard, yea, I live in concert pitch. I pick up bass to anything, I'm playing, concert pitch. I have no problem with all open valves being b flat, f, b flat, d, f, etc. An added plus is that I can out-sight read my teacher many times, lol.


It just means I am playing a lot of songs in b flat, which is cool. I play jaco's chicken in b flat on bass guitar. Or 'billies bounce' in F on bass guitar, which I hope to learn on trumpet in F, I just don't see the point in anything not being in concert pitch. I buy all my music off musicnotes.com in concert pitch.


Last edited by trackday on Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure most of you think I'm an idiot.
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thadjones1213
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you get the Clark book that is fine in any key you like. You are not playing with anything so there should not be a conflict.

You will still benefit from practicing those key centers and gaining dexterity. So your fingerings will be a step off if you played it next to a guy that was playing as if in Bb. No biggie.

The issue would be if you played in an ensemble that the arranger wrote your part in Bb, then you would need to be able to transpose it on sight down a step. Similar to me playing out of a hymnal on Bb trumpet, would need to transpose it up a step to play with the organ.
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Clark book - I get it, what this will do to my playing. This sounds goofy, but Christian, you gave my musical life some real direction today. Thanks!
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Gordontrek
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to be honest with you: you won't get very far if you never learn to read b-flat. Knowing how to read C is good, but knowing b-flat is essential. When I first began I had a lot of trouble learning b-flat myself. I had always played piano and classical guitar, so when I played trumpet I wanted to transpose everything to concert pitch. If you just keep practicing and give it some time you'll get used to it. Whether you're just interested in solo work or a community band, or just playing for fun, you'll get the most out of your trumpet experience if you can read b-flat.
As for the Clark book- I don't know if it's available in C, but I doubt it. If you get it, I would definitely try to play it in b-flat! It's ok every once in a while to play some exercises in C, but only learning the trumpet in C could be detrimental.
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trackday,

Playing until your lips turn to "mush" will NEVER get you to where you are trying to go.

I've been playing for over (25) years and believe me...I've been there and done that only to fail miserably.

It is critical that whenever you practice...whatever you practice...that you force yourself to ...play...rest...play...rest...

NEVER play until your chops are fatigued and then rest, instead NEVER kill your chops, instead find a "pattern" that fits YOU.

Your effective pattern might be play 3 minutes rest 3 minutes...or...play 10 bars rest 10 bars...either way, build this into your practice sessions and you will gain endurance due to building your chops versus destroying them.

I paid a lot of money for private lessons with pros such as Wayne Bergeron who all taught me that "practice makes permanent not perfect".

If you practice wrong, you will teach yourself to consistently play wrong.

I also highly suggest that you read up on "blowing the leadpipe" in the Bill Adam Forum here on TH.

It will help you better understand and feel the way to playing more efficiently by letting the horn do some of the work (less energy in and more coming out) and not overpowering the horn which tends to drive down people's endurance.

I hope this helps you!
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every bit helps!

I can't find the 'blowing the leadpipe' article in the Bill Adams forum. There are a few posts about leadpipes, etc.

edit: I've just done about 2 hours of these page 1 excercises, with breaks, and they don't tire my lips out a bit, I'm not into the higher stuff yet. If I run thru a page of music, it just flows, I hit the high note, get my vibrato in if I want. Then by the end of page 2 I need a rest. But then I can go back to the excercises for awhile. I am truly amazed at this.
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BixFan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trackday wrote:
I pick up bass to anything, I'm playing, concert pitch. I have no problem with all open valves being b flat, f, b flat, d, f, etc.


Well, if you want to get technical, bass is a transposing instrument too - notated an octave higher than sounded.

It will definitely hold you back, if you're ever planning to play with other people. In honor of Bix Beiderbecke's birthday tomorrow (today depending on time zone), let me note that he learned by ear, in C, by playing to recordings, before playing with other people. He didn't really develop great reading facility until pretty late in his career, and it is well documented that it was a great frustration for him.

I'm in the early stages of a comeback, which may or may not ever become a public thing. For now it's just for my own enjoyment. But I'm making a concerted effort to do things better than I did the first time, to learn them right without the pressure of performing on cue. So I guess your path depends on what you are wanting to do with it.

Good Luck!
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My planning to play with other people will always allow time for me to print out my own music. Or just listen to youtube.

I'm in awe of the technical masters of music. At my age, the ensemble stuff just ain't gonna happen. I don't want to be in a band. I want to be able to improv over any track on Foo Tracks on youtube, if I had to state an ambition.
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent a message to my teacher asking how he would characterize my embouchure development. I practised 3 hours yesterday without getting tired till the end, so I did go too long.

I doubt I have the patience to cut back to 20 minutes, to be honest. Music is like going to the carnival for the first time for me, every day all over again. I can't turn it into something I hate.

I know 99% of you have gone through a strict pedagogy that has given amazing results. I have a business with 30 odd employees, the pressures are enormous, and when I get home, I want to step off the reality train for awhile. With all due respect, I see my future behind door #1.

On the plus side, at one year, I can play classics by Duke Ellington, Gershwin, 'Take Five', and am starting to learn my minor pentatonics. I can growl, wa, and have a crude vibrato. The practise yesterday leads me to believe my skill will increase exponentially over the next 2 weeks as I focus on the Clark excercises. I don't expect to ever share the same space as a professional.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone suggested reading about blowing the leadpipe in the Bill Adam forum. I think this is what was meant:
PH wrote:
Just take the tuning slide out, put your lips together in the mouthpiece, take a great big breath, and blow. The note that comes out on most trumpet/mouthpiece combinations should be a concert Eb (trumpet F). Keep the air accelerating through the sound until everything settles down. You can tell this is happening when the sound from the very start of the note to the finish is resonant and very consistent.

After doing this for a minute or 2 you just put the tuning slide in and try to sustain that kind of consistency of airflow and tone.

Extremely advanced players can accelerate the air enough to eventually play some of the other notes that are "slotted" on the pipe by the laws of physics. However, for most people it is enough to play the fundamental.

Remember the tone is the teacher-even on the leadpipe. Trumpet playing is just breathing in and breathing out with a picture of the sound in your mind.

<font size=-2>[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-03-22 08:07 ]</font>
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
Someone suggested reading about blowing the leadpipe in the Bill Adam forum. I think this is what was meant:
PH wrote:
Just take the tuning slide out, put your lips together in the mouthpiece, take a great big breath, and blow. The note that comes out on most trumpet/mouthpiece combinations should be a concert Eb (trumpet F). Keep the air accelerating through the sound until everything settles down. You can tell this is happening when the sound from the very start of the note to the finish is resonant and very consistent.

After doing this for a minute or 2 you just put the tuning slide in and try to sustain that kind of consistency of airflow and tone.

Extremely advanced players can accelerate the air enough to eventually play some of the other notes that are "slotted" on the pipe by the laws of physics. However, for most people it is enough to play the fundamental.

Remember the tone is the teacher-even on the leadpipe. Trumpet playing is just breathing in and breathing out with a picture of the sound in your mind.

<font size=-2>[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-03-22 08:07 ]</font>


Got it! I saw that a couple of days ago on youtube and didn't make the connection. Zen master.
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:


Maybe just get a C trumpet?

Brad361

I wondered this myself.

Just thinking out loud here (and my logic might be flawed): If you play everything in concert pitch but play it on a C-trumpet, then you'll be learning the normal trumpet fingerings. This has the advantage of giving you the flexibility to easily play a Bb trumpet with the same fingerings if you ever decide to do so in the future.

(I know you say now that you never will, but things can change in the future. If you're working with a teacher and practicing at least 2 hours a day, it's likely that you'll reach a point where your ability will improve greatly. You might want to play with an ensemble at that point. Knowing normal fingerings on both a C and a Bb would give you that option.)

Just a thought.
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trackday
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenste - inspite of everything I wrote, I will do it, cutting way back to no more than an hour of actual play time for awhile. My face is blown out from yesterday, so I will do almost nothing today. I will also get my teacher to start me from scratch on embouchure development, as if I am a new student to him. I'll even call him by his last name if I have to. Tho I'll have to start paying him again.

Jerry - great point about the C-trumpet.
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Shipham_Player
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trackday wrote:
kenste - inspite of everything I wrote, I will do it, cutting way back to no more than an hour of actual play time for awhile. My face is blown out from yesterday, so I will do almost nothing today. I will also get my teacher to start me from scratch on embouchure development, as if I am a new student to him. I'll even call him by his last name if I have to. Tho I'll have to start paying him again.

Jerry - great point about the C-trumpet.


I'm a comeback player not starting from scratch but have learned the hard way to back off the playing and rest more.

I found the thing that most helped my playing was not having the luxury of unlimited practice time (i.e. a wife and family!).

What I mean is I am forced to only practice in small doses and surprisingly I've found that about an hour a day with about 20 minutes playing, 20 mintues rest then 20 minutes playing have really helped build my endurance - it's so easy to just blow for hours over backing tracks etc but that doesn't help you progress.

Focused practice in small doses definately does it for me.
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roynj
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you were my student (even part time), given that you like to play trumpet with one hand and piano with another, I'd tell you to get a C trumpet so that you can avoid needing to transpose every note all the time. Of course, you can also play your etudes and other things on the Bb trumpet in the event you ever do wish to play in a band of some kind.

As for playing until or after your lips turn to mush...this is a huge problem and a no no for any serious player or student. I'd suggest to put the trumpet down when your lips get tired (at the first sign of tiredness, not the point past turning to mush). Wait at least 10 minutes, and then pick it up again. If you get tired again, set down the horn for the day. After a while, you will become a much better player for doing this. Students that play on tired lips are creating more problems for themselves than doing good. But perhaps you're not only a lazy beginner, but also a stubborn one and just a little bit unwilling (no?) to change what you're doing. I hope this isn't the case, but I wish you well in any event.
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