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Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this industry


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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this industry Reply with quote

We have an entire age called "The Bronze Age" the properties of copper allows and tin be it brass, bronze or just pure copper have been known to the world and fully understood for Near East 3600-1200BC and in Europe 3750-600BC. The dates are off Wikipedia article not fact checked by myself but seem reasonable.

So unless the trumpet manufacturing industry wants to claim it is well over 2000 years behind the times in knowledge of copper and tin alloys it has no excuse. For? Making leadpipes and main slides with yellow brass or even 70/30 cartridge brass as it is truly using today.

Likewise no reason why a $2000+ dollar domestic trumpet should have inferior materials to a $140-$240 Ebay main land made Chinese trumpet. Nothing less then GOld brass should be used. The leadpipe industry likewise if they are going to pick peoples pockets for $120-$235 for a thin drawn tube it should not be subject to red-rot easily again nothing less then 85% copper should be used. The color of the brass can easily be controlled by what else you add to it besides tin. You can make the brass as yellow, red,orange,golden as you like by what else you add to the copper. The less tin that is in it the less likely red-rot is to happen. There are copper roughs in Europe on some Church's and other building that are 1000 years old.

At the insanely high prices charged for trumpets made in the USA or Western Europe this is not asking for much. I am sure it will bankrupt them like seat-belts did to the Auto Industry. Oh wait a minute that did not pan out and cause them any harm did it???
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this indus Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
We have an entire age called "The Bronze Age" the properties of copper allows and tin be it brass, bronze or just pure copper have been known to the world and fully understood for Near East 3600-1200BC and in Europe 3750-600BC. The dates are off Wikipedia article not fact checked by myself but seem reasonable.

So unless the trumpet manufacturing industry wants to claim it is well over 2000 years behind the times in knowledge of copper and tin alloys it has no excuse. For? Making leadpipes and main slides with yellow brass or even 70/30 cartridge brass as it is truly using today.

Likewise no reason why a $2000+ dollar domestic trumpet should have inferior materials to a $140-$240 Ebay main land made Chinese trumpet. Nothing less then GOld brass should be used. The leadpipe industry likewise if they are going to pick peoples pockets for $120-$235 for a thin drawn tube it should not be subject to red-rot easily again nothing less then 85% copper should be used. The color of the brass can easily be controlled by what else you add to it besides tin. You can make the brass as yellow, red,orange,golden as you like by what else you add to the copper. The less tin that is in it the less likely red-rot is to happen. There are copper roughs in Europe on some Church's and other building that are 1000 years old.

At the insanely high prices charged for trumpets made in the USA or Western Europe this is not asking for much. I am sure it will bankrupt them like seat-belts did to the Auto Industry. Oh wait a minute that did not pan out and cause them any harm did it???



That's AMAZING!!!! Here's something else to think about. The Stone Age ended about 6,000 years ago and we still haven't run out of stones!!! There are stones EVERYWHERE!!!!! The second law of thermodynamics proves we'll never run out of stones. EVER!!!! But try buying some stones for your patio. A decent granite counter top? That could set you back 200 bucks a square foot. FOR ROCKS!!!!! Those guys are 4.3 billion years behind the times. At least!!! Even farther behind in Australia because it's tomorrow there already so add a day to that.
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laurie
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive been on this forum for quite a few years now, and I cant figure out why anyone cares about copper,brass,zinc,tin carbonfibre,plastic, or any other material...who cares?
Are you playing well
Does your audience like what you do
Are you getting gigs
Are you musically satisfied
Bugger the materials that horns are made of.....make music
Laurie
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now we're living in the recycled plastic age. I see there's a plastic trumpet on the horizon, and we already have a plastic trombone. Cars are plastic, furniture is plastic, house siding is plastic, everything electronic is plastic...

But I agree - if we know yellow brass mouthpipes are prime candidates for red rot, why keep producing them? Speaking of plastics, if plastic headlight housings are prime candidates for clouding, why do the car manufacturers keep producing them? Same reason - they look good when new and will last a number of years, and then...who cares? If you don't like it when the part in question craps out, buy a replacement part or get rid of the old trumpet (car) and buy a new one.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laurie wrote:
Ive been on this forum for quite a few years now, and I cant figure out why anyone cares about copper,brass,zinc,tin carbonfibre,plastic, or any other material...who cares?
Are you playing well
Does your audience like what you do
Are you getting gigs
Are you musically satisfied
Bugger the materials that horns are made of.....make music
Laurie


Me too.

Tom
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Rubo
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lead pipe, made of modern materials, that leads to a sound this is horrible is simply....garbage (for musical purposes). With appropriate care, our axes will out live us. Besides, we are all too fickle and move around a lot equipment wise.

For me, I want the best sound, the best response, and to see tears in the eyes of my audience. Could care less about the rest.
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Flattergrub
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It ain't about materials - it's all about the music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3OxKdDxkpg
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only thing that will bankrupt trumpets manufacturers is when trumpet players forget about the music.




Walter
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read the whole OP, but I think the point was that for a very long time we have known the properties of brass and should be using a better material.

It is actually an interesting question. There must be a reason makers prefer the current materials.
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fredo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer the sound of entire yellow brass horns.

Why put more cooper ?

To have less resistance to impact ?

To avoid red rot ? : clean your horn !

And as others said it, just let's play ...
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:
I didn't read the whole OP, but I think the point was that for a very long time we have known the properties of brass and should be using a better material.

It is actually an interesting question. There must be a reason makers prefer the current materials.


+1
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kandor
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP posed an interesting question, why yellow brass at all ?
Yamaha has almost stopped using it in leadpipes, due to corrosion risks (there are few rare exceptions). But they still build a lot of yellow brass bells.
Probably the sound is different, for sure it is not a cost issue, it is negligible.
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John R Davidson
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit

Last edited by John R Davidson on Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lh
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And copper costs just pennies....
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"What are they teaching in school these days?" Running a business should be part of everyone's education, in my opinion. The answer to the Capt.'s question requires much more thought than any of his numerous posts on this subject entertain. Let's look at two.

If you want to earn wages, get a job. If you want to prosper, start and run a business. Despite the growing popular view, prospering financially does not mean a person is greedy. Greed is present in every financial strata, as is generosity. Pricing is largely governed by one's competition. China is not competing, it is conquering and decimating. If North American and European countries were to compete with Chinese pricing, employees would have to quit and/or the factory would shut down.

Two: In my experience, the greater the ratio of copper to zinc, the less presence there is of high frequencies, note centering suffers as does projection. Btw, I have played some horns with gold brass mouth pipes. I haven't liked a one of them. Make mine 70/30 Cartridge brass, thank you.

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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea what Kirk is saying but I do know about Schilke and their B5 and B6.... copper belled horns. Rick Baptist has played on over 750 movies using his B5... rest assured you have all heard the sound and it lacks nothing. Bill Chase has played lead on his B6 in bands so loud your hair would curl.....

Of course there are as many stories about the other combinations of metal. End of the day.... find a good horn play it to death and then buy another...."play" being the operative word....oh yeah and don't drop it...it will bend... copper or not.

Better not mention the Olds Recording........or a Besson Gold Brass Cornet I once had that sounded like it should be played by angels. I have even had a horn made from shell casing brass ...man that was a tough beast!

Walter
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James Becker
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

laurie wrote:
Ive been on this forum for quite a few years now, and I cant figure out why anyone cares about copper,brass,zinc,tin carbonfibre,plastic, or any other material...who cares?
Are you playing well
Does your audience like what you do
Are you getting gigs
Are you musically satisfied
Bugger the materials that horns are made of.....make music
Laurie


AMEN Laurie! After decades of trial and error the vast majority of players continue to prefer the sound of yellow brass over other alloys. And when simple steps are taken red rot is no harder to avoid than tooth decay.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shofarguy wrote:
If North American and European countries were to compete with Chinese pricing, employees would have to quit and/or the factory would shut down.

Brian


Sorry, but if all the NA and European employers paid what the Chinese do, the Chinese would run out of well-heeled customers in a matter of months. To regain that same competitive advantage the Chinese would then have to cut their wages by 2/3...

shofarguy wrote:
"What are they teaching in school these days?" Running a business should be part of everyone's education, in my opinion. If you want to earn wages, get a job. If you want to prosper, start and run a business.

Brian


Dear Brian. In my experience, the most prosperous of businesses typically retain a significant number of employees. Even "individual investors" like Warren Buffet employ a cadre of analysts and staff. And the large investors make significant profits largely because they invest in companies with large numbers of... employees!!!

So... If *everyone* takes your hypothetical road to prosperity and "starts a business" where, pray tell, do all those profit-generating employees come from???? Nice theory. In theory.

BTW, I read the book, too. And I sure hope "everybody" DOESN'T start a business of their own. I've got enough competition already. Don't you? All the best. M
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a well made trumpet is good for a 50 year run, but it a cold accountant way let's call it a 20 year property for a working musician.
i am asking all of you this question. what is the percentage of trumpets that will require leadpipe replacement within 20 years? ..because if we are talking about a very small number, kirk is bitching about something that isn't likely to happen, and if it does happen to you, deal with it.
i don't know what you all know about manufacturing people. ren schilke wasn't anyone's fool nor is zig kanstul. they weren't tipsy and blowing bubbles when ordering and paying for material.
..chuck
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeyMike wrote:
shofarguy wrote:
If North American and European countries were to compete with Chinese pricing, employees would have to quit and/or the factory would shut down.

Brian


Sorry, but if all the NA and European employers paid what the Chinese do, the Chinese would run out of well-heeled customers in a matter of months. To regain that same competitive advantage the Chinese would then have to cut their wages by 2/3...

shofarguy wrote:
"What are they teaching in school these days?" Running a business should be part of everyone's education, in my opinion. If you want to earn wages, get a job. If you want to prosper, start and run a business.

Brian


Dear Brian. In my experience, the most prosperous of businesses typically retain a significant number of employees. Even "individual investors" like Warren Buffet employ a cadre of analysts and staff. And the large investors make significant profits largely because they invest in companies with large numbers of... employees!!!

So... If *everyone* takes your hypothetical road to prosperity and "starts a business" where, pray tell, do all those profit-generating employees come from???? Nice theory. In theory.

BTW, I read the book, too. And I sure hope "everybody" DOESN'T start a business of their own. I've got enough competition already. Don't you? All the best. M


Having a large number of employees is a byproduct of a successful business, not the cause of it. Investors invest in businesses that make money for the investors or shareholders. Usually that is a profitable business but not always. As airline CEOs have shown us, it is possible to make money for shareholders while running a company into the ground (pun intended), at least for a short while.

What is troubling to me is the businesses that actually manufature something and add real value to our economy, whether it be wood products, steel, or whatever; have very low profit margins and struggle for their existence. On the other hand many business's that make nothing, like Google and Facebook, make very high profit margins but add very little to our economy.

Until we can revitalize manufacturing, our economy won't recover.
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