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Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this industry


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Phantom309
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Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much more goes into the way an alloy reacts in a trumpet than just the respective amounts of different metals in the alloy, whether it be 72% Pb or 112% Cu.
The instrument companies used to be able to specify things like hardness and grain size, but the instrument industry is such a small player in the overall brass market that the brass mills won't supply the "right stuff" anymore for an affordable price. One of the biggest manufacturers in the business has been unable to obtain the brass they used to get in the old days for quite a few years now. I wondered why they were so damn hard to do dent work on these days. That's why.
Yellow brass? No problem. I've played lots of 200 year old yellow brass instruments that have no sign of red rot. You have to start with a reasonable quality alloy. After that, the way it's annealed, formed, stress relieved, normalized all have an effect on the way it will sound and how long it will last before rotting out. Some of these crucial steps are no longer done because people want a cheap horn more than they want a good horn.
The Asian factories, including you know who, are pretty much forced to use red brass leadpipes because the quality of the yellow brass they use is so awful it would rot out even before it made it across the Pacific.
The only reason to use any particular alloy is because of how it sounds. Punctum. Yellow brass, properly done, will last indefinitely if reasonably cared for and will sound great. A lot of the rot problems are happening because of the quality of the brass available and because steps are being left out in the processing. The rest of the rot problems are happening because you never clean your horn.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeyMike wrote:
afp wrote:

Well, I wouldn't call their $1.0 Billion in profit in 2011 on $3.7 Billion in revenue as barely "breaking even," but hey, if that is what you want to call it that's fine. BTW, they paid no taxes for 2011 and in fact got a $429 million refund. In 2010 they had $1.974 Billion in revenue and a $606 million profit, and in 2009 they had $777 million in revenue and $229 in profit.


Daylight savings tomorrow. Don't forget to set your clock ahead. And your calendar. It's 2013. Myself, I go by current financial data.


I see. You admit defeat.
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phantom309 wrote:
I've played lots of 200 year old yellow brass instruments that have no sign of red rot.


Lots? What 200 hundred year old brass instruments have you played? Where?
Very interesting.
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MikeyMike
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately, yes. Actually, no. Despite much "good advice" to the contrary, I ran from the initial offering. Got one right.
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I make a big deal about copper alloys and this indus Reply with quote

Kreno wrote:
Those guys are 4.3 billion years behind the times. At least!!!


Not possible
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MikeyMike wrote:
Unfortunately, yes. Actually, no. Despite much "good advice" to the contrary, I ran from the initial offering. Got one right.


LOL!! Maybe there is hope for you yet. I thought their IPO was way over priced as well. I wonder if we could talk them into making gold brass trumpets?
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Brian Moon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R Davidson wrote:
I guess I should stop driving my car with tires that can dry rot, and change over to copper tires.

Thank you lieutenant Kirk!


fuh shuh fuh shuh
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey wait! This lead idea has ballooned to a whole trumpet made of lead.

Think of it, you assemble the parts, torch all the joints really gently, using the captain's idea of a good solder, (50/50) and it becomes a ONE-PIECE TRUMPET!

Man, it's kind of the ultimate, surprised the Romans didn't think of it, or maybe they did.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: "Lead" pipe Reply with quote

Sometimes my warped sense of humor sends out bad signals. I was jesting with my "New Lead-Pipe" [same spelling as leadpipe pertaining to the end of the trumpet you blow into] coming out soon and the analogy to the Romans and the trouble they had with lead water pipes dosing the Empire. Nero was fiddling and Rome was burning...oh, never mind. Apologies to anyone not realizing my attempt at humor.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns, available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany and Sydney, Australia at Sax and Woodwind...and Brass.
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People need a sense of humour, especially when reading the Captain.
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