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Slotting Difficulty in Mid-Upper Register



 
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meddle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:54 am    Post subject: Slotting Difficulty in Mid-Upper Register Reply with quote

As I progress and solve some problems with my playing, others start to become more apparent.
Lately I've become very aware of a problem I am having with control above the register. This is mostly a problem when playing quickly between G and D. I have no problem with hitting the notes individually, but when playing a section of a piece that has a string of eight notes in this range, I have a lot of difficulty in playing each note clearly.
This is kind of hard to explain, but hopefully you get the idea. Any suggestions on how to improve this?
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clarke Technical studies - especially practiced until they sound like music. The first 3 studies should cover that problem pretty well.
Start slow, keep steady time, and blow.
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Slotting Difficulty in Mid-Upper Register Reply with quote

meddle wrote:
I have no problem with hitting the notes individually, but when playing a section of a piece that has a string of eight notes in this range, I have a lot of difficulty in playing each note clearly.
This is kind of hard to explain, but hopefully you get the idea. Any suggestions on how to improve this?


Is it the case that you can slur the notes more successfully than you can tongue them?

Tommy T.
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meddle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have to say that I can tongue them better than slur them, but that's not to say I don't have the problem when tonging also.
Clark Technical Studies - I've actually been practicing the first four studies daily for 2 years now. I'm thinking I may need more help than that?
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if you took offense - its been my (repeated) discovery that I always have more work to do on those etudes.
Each time I come back to them I've found that I can hear things wrong with my playing that I hadn't been able to hear before.
If they're ridiculously under your fingers and chops, but still having problems, maybe try playing all of the tonal ones in minor keys rather than major. It'll force you to re-think how you go about playing them in a way that might help you find what's wrong.
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

meddle wrote:
I'd have to say that I can tongue them better than slur them, but that's not to say I don't have the problem when tonging also.
...


Well, you don't have same problem I had with a lazy tongue messing up the air stream.

Is the problem the same when using your Strad versus your Conn?

And, what's your mouthpiece and have you experimented with a different size?

Tommy T.
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meddle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't take any offense at all! I just wanted let you know that I already work on those. I don't have them mastered by any means, but I'm lacking only in speed at this point. I can play all of them pretty well to a certain extent.
I don't have the book in front of me, but at the end of section 4 or 5 there is a section ending etude where the second to last measure is an ascending scale ending on a high C. I can play most of that etude pretty well, and then I get to that measure and blow the last beat or two that goes above the staff. I'll hit the C, but the F-G-A-B get all messed up. If I play just that part over and over, I might get it right on about the 5th try, unless I slow it WAAAAY down, and then I can play it. Then I try playing the piece, or maybe just the last line again, and a mess it up again.
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meddle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tommy t. wrote:
meddle wrote:
I'd have to say that I can tongue them better than slur them, but that's not to say I don't have the problem when tonging also.
...


Well, you don't have same problem I had with a lazy tongue messing up the air stream.

Is the problem the same when using your Strad versus your Conn?

And, what's your mouthpiece and have you experimented with a different size?

Tommy T.


Its a little worse with the Strad, but the Conn is generally harder to play in that range than the Strad if that makes any sense. The Strad is my main horn. I don't really use the Conn very often. I also tried it on my son's bach Omega and it wasn't much different.
I'm also having ongoing problems with what I think is a double buzz. I had neither of these problems years ago, but have since I started a comeback a few years ago. I currently use a Bach 3B. I've used 1-1/4C, 1-1/2C,2-1/2C, and 3C pieces for long periods of time, and used to use a Zottola something or other years ago for a lead piece. I've tried for lesser amounts of time Bach 5C, 7C, Shilke 12, 14a4a, a couple other Shilke's I can't remember and several Giardinelli's. I always come back to the Bach's, as they just seem more comfortable. I went to the 3B in an effort to darken my sound a bit, which I thought was too bright with the 3C. I briefly tried the 1-1/2C and 2-1/2C to see if they made any difference, and they didn't.
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah - here's something to try. Instead of stopping clarke 2 where it does, just continue on up (if you aren't already), either by transposing or reading #33-37 up an octave.
No shame in slow!
From a different method book (Schuebruk):
"There is no shame in playing slowly and neatly. There is no pride in playing quickly and slovenly"

Couple of other things to try:
1) Tongue arch (if you aren't already or aren't morally opposed to it). Arch your tongue (ta--eee) as you ascend.
2) MORE AIR. Rather than playing sections quietly, play them loud so you can guarantee that you've got a consistent airstream over the notes.

Something to wonder about is if you're giving your lips inconsistent airstream or if you're tightening up too much as you ascend, but over the internet I certainly couldn't know!
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bagmangood wrote:
...


Something to wonder about is if you're giving your lips inconsistent airstream or if you're tightening up too much as you ascend, but over the internet I certainly couldn't know!


This is sort of where I was heading too. We've got some clues about what it is not: two pretty different horns have the same problem -- so structural faults in the instruments, like gap problem or valve alignment or water key leaks would have to have a coincidental similar effect. Also, the mouthpieces mentioned are mostly pretty middle of the course and not obvious problem makers.

A lot of modern thinking focuses on the air stream and ascending into one's upper range certainly creates lots of opportunities for tension and/or pressure to interfer with the rapid changes needed to make 1/8 note runs up high. But, I think that the slur/tongue test sort of rules out an air problem in this case.

I've gotten a lot of help with developing a useable set of high notes above what I could rely on just a couple of years ago from John Daniel's Special Studies, Reinhardt practices as interpreted by Rich Willey and the revised Cat Anderson material which seems to work by limiting variables. My self-analysis is that all of these approaches tend to increase chop efficiency and to decrease chop response time. Those improvements increase the ability to use other parts of the system (like the tongue in articulation and finger action/pitch placement timing) to achieve musical results.

Like Bagmangood said: hard to know without being there, and that brings up the archetypal response: Get a good private instructor.

Tommy T.
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meddle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses. I actually do have a private instructor, but because of scheduling conflicts we haven't been able to meet since I became more aware of this issue. I'll definitely ask him about it next time we meet.
To clarify (now that I'm home), the example I gave was Etude V in the Clark Tech Studies. I also have the problem on the second measure of the 10th line.
I seem to have trouble being able to play and pay attention to what my tongue is doing at the same time, but I'll try.
I'm also not sure about the air, but I do think I have enough of it, as sometimes I overshoot the notes. If I didn't already know better, I could swear it was a problem with my horn, because it seems like there is very little "band width" for hitting any particular note, and it seems to get smaller the faster I play. I have no trouble hitting any of these notes individually, but I have to slow that pattern way down before I can hit all of them consistently.
I seems like I used to have a lot more control in that range than I do now. I know it's impossible to know for sure what someone's issue is over the net, but I appreciate the suggestions and will give them a try.
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