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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9831 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:32 am Post subject: |
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The only way to settle the argument about tongue level and air speed would be to set up another Fluoroscope (x-ray) study similar to the one done in the '60's at North Texas State and the one done by Claude Gordon in the '80's.
I personally have knowledge of the CG one, but I don't know who has the actually material created - perhaps Dr. Larry Miller or Loma Linda University. I realize that the proponents of the idea that you can change registers on a trumpet without changing your tongue level will not take my word for it, but the fact is, nobody was able to do so in either of those studies (where tongue level can clearly be seen on the fluoroscope).
The change in tongue level is very subtle and often minute, and as such, many players don't even notice it. But when displayed visually, in both studies done (the only ones ever done to my knowledge), even the most hardy and stubborn players involved saw that they were wrong and that their tongue levels indeed had to change in order for them to ascend or descend more than a few steps in either direction.
I am not interested in any "on-line debates" or arguments over this matter - it would be pointless.
What I am interested in, is working in conjunction with others such as Charlie Raymond ("Bugleboy"), Dave Bacon, Daniel Flores, Lee Adams, Jeff Lambardino, and creating a NEW fluoroscope research experiment that would show what actually goes on in trumpet player’s mouths as they play from lower notes to higher notes and vice-versa.
Perhaps this could be done in cooperation with the ITG with results published there. It would be mandatory that participants from “both camps” be included in this study, so that later, there would not be anyone trying to argue that the participants had a specific outcome pre-planned.
The problems are money and logistics. Renting time on a Fluoroscope machine would not be cheap I’m sure. And the logistics of getting a large group of us together from different points around the world would certainly be difficult.
But the results should be quite valuable. I am particularly interested in seeing what the “SuperChops” players look like on a Fluoroscope. Do they really tongue the way they say they do? Do all of them? A comparison of tongue level between more advanced players and lesser players would be interesting as well. Do I really use my tongue the way I say I do? Does Charlie? Inquiring minds would most certainly want to know!
So, anyone else interested?
Sincerely,
John Mohan _________________ Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student |
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rch-tech Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 165 Location: Madison, WI
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I think that would be quite interesting as well as a learning experience. |
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Lee Adams Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 222 Location: Atlanta, Ga
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Actually another fluoroscope study will be of little use unless a precise measurement of air speed is monitored simultaneously at or near the fixed aperture of the mouthpiece throat and/or at the point of air exiting directly in front of the lips.
Additionaly bio feed back results of the changes in tension of the facial/embouchure muscles done at the same time as the fluoroscope would be essential if we want to be as fair as possible about what actually goes on while playing.
Over a year ago I did the air velocity/volume experiments with small aneometers placed near the mouthpiece throat entrance in direct contact with the air stream.
In 2000 I did a detailed bio feed back testing of facial/embouchure muscles while playing from low F# to Double high C including small interval slurs and lip trills.
It will take me a few days to find time to present the results here in the forum but I shall return.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-02-15 09:59 ] |
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Chicagoman 'Chicago School' Forum Moderator
Joined: 17 Nov 2001 Posts: 49 Location: USA
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Hey John,
I would be more than happy to participate in your study. I for one completely agree that the tongue does indeed move while we play in different registers. However, my particular way of playing puts no real deliberate emphasis on the tongue's movement. When we sing phrasing, we always incorporate different vowels like AH, EE, OH, etc,.. and the tongue definitely moves. It would be interesting to know where my tongue and all that is really going, because I've never really thought about it. Money is going to be a problem, and then getting everyone to agree on doing this is another. I guess we'll just see what happens.
Good talking to you again,
Chicagoman |
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dales Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 521 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:51 am Post subject: |
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See the biography here for a mention of a "Videoflurographic Study of the Teeth Aperture, Instrument Pivot and Tongue Arch and Their Influence on Trumpet Performance" done by a University of South Carolina trumpet professor who was at North Texas State in the 1960s: http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/amstutz/ |
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Quadruple C Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:04 ] |
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_bugleboy Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 2865
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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[quote]
On 2002-02-15 09:50, Lee Adams wrote:
Actually another fluoroscope study will be of little use unless a precise measurement of air speed is monitored simultaneously at or near the fixed aperture of the mouthpiece throat and/or at the point of air exiting directly in front of the lips.
Additionaly bio feed back results of the changes in tension of the facial/embouchure muscles done at the same time as the fluoroscope would be essential if we want to be as fair as possible about what actually goes on while playing.
Over a year ago I did the air velocity/volume experiments with small aneometers placed near the mouthpiece throat entrance in direct contact with the air stream.
In 2000 I did a detailed bio feed back testing of facial/embouchure muscles while playing from low F# to Double high C including small interval slurs and lip trills.
It will take me a few days to find time to present the results here in the forum but I shall return.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
Lee,
NOW this thread is starting to sound scientific. Excellent suggestions on how to make any new fluoroscopic study be truly meaningful. We'll all be watching for the results of the scientific experiments that you participated in last year and in 2000. Science doesn't lie but there are plenty of those with an agenda who don't present all the facts, or don't seek all the facts that might refute their position. Good post in keeping this issue clear and on target.
Regards,
Charly |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9831 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2002-02-15 09:50, Lee Adams wrote:
Actually another fluoroscope study will be of little use unless a precise measurement of air speed is monitored simultaneously at or near the fixed aperture of the mouthpiece throat and/or at the point of air exiting directly in front of the lips.
Additionaly bio feed back results of the changes in tension of the facial/embouchure muscles done at the same time as the fluoroscope would be essential if we want to be as fair as possible about what actually goes on while playing.
Over a year ago I did the air velocity/volume experiments with small aneometers placed near the mouthpiece throat entrance in direct contact with the air stream.
In 2000 I did a detailed bio feed back testing of facial/embouchure muscles while playing from low F# to Double high C including small interval slurs and lip trills.
It will take me a few days to find time to present the results here in the forum but I shall return.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
<font size=-2>[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-02-15 09:59 ]</font>
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I don't think it would be "of little use" even without your added ideas, but those ideas of yours are great ideas and would contribute more to the information gained in the potential research study.
My original idea was to show that one cannot play from the low register to the high register without arching one's tongue up and forward in the mouth (in a similar fashion to what one does when whistling from a low pitch to a high pitch). And I guess I was willing to assume that it was an increase in air velocity that this tongue arching brought about. With your added idea of actually measuring the air velocity, this assumption of mine could then be validated.
John Mohan |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9831 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2002-02-15 13:51, dales wrote:
See the biography here for a mention of a "Videoflurographic Study of the Teeth Aperture, Instrument Pivot and Tongue Arch and Their Influence on Trumpet Performance" done by a University of South Carolina trumpet professor who was at North Texas State in the 1960s: http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/amstutz/
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Thanks for posting this info! I'm surfin' over to that Website right now!
John Mohan |
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mcstock Veteran Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 466 Location: Norman, OK
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:01 am Post subject: |
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A brief segment of the fluoroscopic study John Haynie did at North Texas is included in Fred Sautter's instructional video, "Sound the Trumpet."
Best wishes,
Matt Stock |
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Lex Grantham Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 345 Location: East Texas
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Interestingly enough, I was among those in the fluoroscope study conducted by John Haynie at North Texas State University during the summer of 1964 (I believe it was).
Mr. Haynie was teaching a brass pedagogy class that summer semester, and there were 12-20 of us who were his students. He was friends with a radiologist in Denton, Texas, and the doctor was also a trumpet player. Over dinner one evening with their wives, the two gentlemen got into a discussion about trumpet...just how do certain things occur when playing the instrument?
I do not know if it was Haynie's idea or the radiologist's, but it was suggested that the class could come down to the clinic one evening, and we would ALL find out something about the internal position of the teeth alignments, tongue positions, etc when ascending the registers by using the flouroscope.
The flouroscopic session eventually turned into more research for Mr. Haynie, as I believe he was able to receive some grant money from somewhere in Texas (and/or other) for administering his project.
Sincerely,
Lex Grantham |
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dbacon Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:39 am Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9831 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2002-02-18 11:39, dbacon wrote:
The tongue rides the air stream. Arnold Jacobs gave this to me in a lesson and this concept helps, with it you don't need to concern yourself with anything other than what sound you want. If I concieve of a brighter sound it seems the tongue moves up some. If I hear a less bright sound the tongue seems more out of the way. I try to only listen to the sound I want, and go for the results rather than trying to dictate to a small muscle what it should do. Relax the tongue as you inhale seems to allow an easier inhale. Hearing the sound the breath makes as it enters helps("OH" on inhale, "TOH" as you exhale). It works better for me to focus on moving air freely and energetically for projection, brilliance, whatever the passage calls for. When I try to think AW, EEE, instead of the sound I want, stuff gets tight. In the high register especially I don't want to be tight. Allowing the tongue to ride the air gives it the freedom to shape the sound through the correct signals from my subconcious. Giving a specific direction to my tongue to arch sends a confusing signal to the muscles, but if you dial up more brilliance or fullness or projection or whatever you are really after, the muscles have a chance to work together.
Let the tongue ride the air, think in terms of sound with lots of freedom and motion and playing becomes easier. This is what works for me. If AW-EEE works for you, do it!
Dave Bacon
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Yes! As Claude said (though this is rarely quoted and this is from my memory, not any particular book): "Though the basic movement of the tongue is from "aww" to "eee" as one goes up, there are movements that are of such subtle nature, that one can hardly, if at all feel what one does to change tonality, etc."
And:
"You make the tone - you make the pitch - you make the sound and the style. Not the trumpet, and not the mouthpiece."
I think this all goes with what you are saying, Dave.
John Mohan |
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Lee Adams Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 222 Location: Atlanta, Ga
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2002-02-18 09:52, John Mohan wrote:
Quote: |
On 2002-02-15 09:50, Lee Adams wrote:
Actually another fluoroscope study will be of little use unless a precise measurement of air speed is monitored simultaneously at or near the fixed aperture of the mouthpiece throat and/or at the point of air exiting directly in front of the lips.
Additionaly bio feed back results of the changes in tension of the facial/embouchure muscles done at the same time as the fluoroscope would be essential if we want to be as fair as possible about what actually goes on while playing.
Over a year ago I did the air velocity/volume experiments with small aneometers placed near the mouthpiece throat entrance in direct contact with the air stream.
In 2000 I did a detailed bio feed back testing of facial/embouchure muscles while playing from low F# to Double high C including small interval slurs and lip trills.
It will take me a few days to find time to present the results here in the forum but I shall return.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-02-15 09:59 ]
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I don't think it would be "of little use" even without your added ideas, but those ideas of yours are great ideas and would contribute more to the information gained in the potential research study.
My original idea was to show that one cannot play from the low register to the high register without arching one's tongue up and forward in the mouth (in a similar fashion to what one does when whistling from a low pitch to a high pitch). And I guess I was willing to assume that it was an increase in air velocity that this tongue arching brought about. With your added idea of actually measuring the air velocity, this assumption of mine could then be validated.
John Mohan
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John yes I agree that the tongue does rise up in varying degrees while ascending I have never denied the issue. Over two years ago I did an analysis of the interconnectivity of the muscles,fiber,and tissues under the tongue. And in the three typical embouchure formations Smile, Pucker, Super Chops style, all three have simultaneous usages of those muscles,fibers, tissues under the tongue which causes the tongue to rise while ascending.
The interconnectivity is directly linked to the required changes in the facial/embouchure muscles while ascending.
Unrefuted scientific evidence backs up the premise that the embouchure must have changes in mass and in tension while ascending.
The muscles used in all three embouchure styles in acheiving the changes in mass and tension while ascending are interconnected to those which also cause the tongue to rise simultaneously.
Being that I have used all three of these embouchure styles over the years I can emulate them to a fair degree for testing purposes. I clearly feel the tongue level at it's highest with the Smile embouchure I actually feel the front part of the tongue touching the roof of the mouth while ascending.
More forward but still fairly high in the back with the pucker embouchure and K tonguing
The least amount of arch is felt in the farther forward and thru the teeth tonguing positions similar to SC.
The farther the tongue is forward the less it can be arched. This is universal among human physiologists.
As I have continued to develop good chop compression over the years I feel less and less need for the tongue arching.
I think it was Bugleboy as I remember mentioned some time back that he feels that he can cover a wide range with his tongue intentionally held down. The more that I develop good chop compression the more that I agree with him that the rising of the tongue in itself is not responsible for change in pitch but it is only one of the components.
When I used a smile embouchure I was very dependent on a high arched tongue because I had much less control of my embouchure it thinned out and stretched away from the center while ascending. I needed the high arched tongue for air resistance because my poor chops had already blown apart in the upper register.
I would find another fluoroscope fun to do with a good mix of different playing styles, and embouchure types. And with air measurement and bio feed back all at the same time. Coincidentally I have such a study on the drawing board.
John just purchasing time on a fluoroscope is not as easy as you may think.
I investigated that with different resources over the past 2 years. And in every case it requires a doctors recommendation for a specific health problem due to X-ray regulations here in the states.
The only other avenue that I found was to get on the list of a medical college as a research project.
I was put on the list at Emory Medical College last summer for such an experiment with a fluoroscope to include bio feed back and air volume/velocity simultaneously.
It looks like another year or so on the waiting list but when a date is set up I will make an announcement and those wishing to participate can contact me. Mike Ackerman in Atlanta has already volunteered as a test subject. I will keep you updated.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-02-19 10:04 ] |
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_bugleboy Carmine Caruso Forum Moderator
Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 2865
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Lee,
As usual, you have brought new light to this topic.
"Over two years ago I did an analysis of the interconnectivity of the muscles, fiber, and tissues under the tongue. And in the three typical embouchure formations Smile, Pucker, Super Chops style, all three have simultaneous usages of those muscles,fibers, tissues under the tongue which causes the tongue to rise while ascending.
The interconnectivity is directly linked to the required changes in the facial/embouchure muscles while ascending."
I have suspected a relationship of this nature between the tongue and the facial muscles but have not had the time to research it. You have brought us all some great physiological info that should clarify the issues somewhat about the tongue and the embouchure. The issue, AISI (as I see it) is this. Due to the interconnectivity of the muscles in the face and tongue,
1. Does the tongue rise due to increased tension in the facial muscles while ascending, or
2. Does raising the tongue (or consciously reshaping it in some fashion) cause the facial muscles to increase their tension, thus causing pitch to rise.
Since we all seem to agree (I think) that the lips MUST undergo a change of some nature (this should be another topic, i.e., exactly what kind of changes occur in the lips, if in fact there ARE changes) in order to allow for a rise in pitch, it would seem more reasonable to me that the focus should be on the muscles that would most directly influence this change in the lips, namely the facial muscles. So my position would remain as it always has, that the assumed changes that occur in the lips that cause the pitch to increase are directly a result of facial muscle flexing. The tongue, due to the fact that it is interconnected by muscle tissue, reacts to this flexing and most assuredly changes its shape and position. But this tongue movement is a reaction and not a cause. And as I have said in the past (old forum), the tongue is just along for the ride.
This position will, of course, be challenged by those that believe the tongue plays a proactive role in pitch change. But, perhaps the debate may be more focused now, thanks to your scientific post establishing this muscular interconnectivity.
Regards,
Charly |
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Quadruple C Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-12-18 14:04 ] |
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Lee Adams Veteran Member
Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 222 Location: Atlanta, Ga
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Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2002-02-19 11:02, bugleboy wrote:
Lee,
As usual, you have brought new light to this topic.
"Over two years ago I did an analysis of the interconnectivity of the muscles, fiber, and tissues under the tongue. And in the three typical embouchure formations Smile, Pucker, Super Chops style, all three have simultaneous usages of those muscles,fibers, tissues under the tongue which causes the tongue to rise while ascending.
The interconnectivity is directly linked to the required changes in the facial/embouchure muscles while ascending."
I have suspected a relationship of this nature between the tongue and the facial muscles but have not had the time to research it. You have brought us all some great physiological info that should clarify the issues somewhat about the tongue and the embouchure. The issue, AISI (as I see it) is this. Due to the interconnectivity of the muscles in the face and tongue,
1. Does the tongue rise due to increased tension in the facial muscles while ascending, or
2. Does raising the tongue (or consciously reshaping it in some fashion) cause the facial muscles to increase their tension, thus causing pitch to rise.
Since we all seem to agree (I think) that the lips MUST undergo a change of some nature (this should be another topic, i.e., exactly what kind of changes occur in the lips, if in fact there ARE changes) in order to allow for a rise in pitch, it would seem more reasonable to me that the focus should be on the muscles that would most directly influence this change in the lips, namely the facial muscles. So my position would remain as it always has, that the assumed changes that occur in the lips that cause the pitch to increase are directly a result of facial muscle flexing. The tongue, due to the fact that it is interconnected by muscle tissue, reacts to this flexing and most assuredly changes its shape and position. But this tongue movement is a reaction and not a cause. And as I have said in the past (old forum), the tongue is just along for the ride.
This position will, of course, be challenged by those that believe the tongue plays a proactive role in pitch change. But, perhaps the debate may be more focused now, thanks to your scientific post establishing this muscular interconnectivity.
Regards,
Charly
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Charly in re to your number 1 and 2.
1. Yes the interconnectivity is overwhelmingly obvious while ascending in actual play conditions. The fluoroscope studies actually help to verify this. Although some of the testers were not thinking along these lines and seemed to of had an agenda in promoting or trying to validate notions that the rising tongue is largely responsible for pitch change and faster air. The weakness in that comes from the incompleteness of the test. Because no accompanying tests or simultaneous tests were made to actually measure air speed/volume as well as bio feed back tests concerning the embouchure facial muscles including interconnectivity with the tongue.
2. A concsiously reshaping of the tongue seems to have little bearing on activating the facial/embouchure muscles.
After you posed the question I went over to Pro Therpay center and used their bio feedback monitor.
I can easily and consciously move, arch and shape my tongue in my mouth with very little activation of facial/embouchure muscles.
Certainly not enough for pitch change to occur in actual play conditions.
Charly the closing statements in your post are very well stated that the tongue is along for the ride. Sure the tongue can be influenced but the importance of that thing called the embouchure just won't go away
Soon I will present the info that I promised earlier concerning air velocity.
As always AAtozhvac@cs.com 706-347-2429
Lee Adams
[ This Message was edited by: Lee Adams on 2002-02-23 01:12 ] |
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Jim Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2001 Posts: 110
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 3:27 am Post subject: |
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These are all great ideas for study. It should be noted, however, that science CAN be misleading when subjected to human interpretation and bias. Physicians and researchers such as myself who regularly read scientific and professional journals realize that scientific research adds clarity to topics characterized by myriad variables and is authoritative relative to topics which have few variables. Upper-register performance certainly falls into the former of the above-noted categories. Therefore, I am dubious that an autonomous study would completely clarify this issue since we all know there are numerous contributing factors which allow good high-note capability. Ideally all of the known "fundamentals" to upper-register playing should be studied and evaluated via RCT's(randomized controlled trials); then the results should be published in peer-reviewed journals for comments and critical appraisal. No single study will give us all the answers we are seeking. It is through this process that we will gain further knowledge of how we do what we do on our trumpets. Just my thooughts, Jim |
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Jeff Lambardino Regular Member
Joined: 05 Dec 2001 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Jim
I see what you are saying however the upper register and doing clinical trials of theories as you have suggested is not the issue here as significantly as is the actual topic of AIR SPEED and the importance of or lack of importance of the tongue in acheiving AIR SPEED.
Im very glad that people like Lee Adams continue tp break new ground at researching and offering scientifically based analysis of the different components involved in playing the trumpet.
Those efforts can help us in teaching better in the future and actually assimilating an intelligent approach to base further testing on.
Lee keep up the good work and thank you for taking the time to share with us.
Jeff Lambardino
[ This Message was edited by: Jeff Lambardino on 2002-02-23 09:48 ] |
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William Bentley Regular Member
Joined: 15 Jan 2002 Posts: 34 Location: Nashville Tenn
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Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2002 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
On 2002-02-23 06:27, Jim wrote:
These are all great ideas for study. It should be noted, however, that science CAN be misleading when subjected to human interpretation and bias. Physicians and researchers such as myself who regularly read scientific and professional journals realize that scientific research adds clarity to topics characterized by myriad variables and is authoritative relative to topics which have few variables. Upper-register performance certainly falls into the former of the above-noted categories. Therefore, I am dubious that an autonomous study would completely clarify this issue since we all know there are numerous contributing factors which allow good high-note capability. Ideally all of the known "fundamentals" to upper-register playing should be studied and evaluated via RCT's(randomized controlled trials); then the results should be published in peer-reviewed journals for comments and critical appraisal. No single study will give us all the answers we are seeking. It is through this process that we will gain further knowledge of how we do what we do on our trumpets. Just my thooughts, Jim
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Jim is right that the human bias can effect and even mislead. I have always been apprehensive about fluoroscope studies.
The conclusion as Claude Gordon and John Mohan keeps echoing that seeing the tongue rise on a fluoroscope to validate air speed or increase in register is like a piece of swiss cheese. Too many variables were not taken into consideration.
With Gordon already teaching "don't mess with the lips" there only function is to vibrate.
A human bias was already introduced into the outcome of the fluoroscope experiment.
The lips involvement in controling pitch or air speed were biased out of the picture.
Sincerely
William
[ This Message was edited by: William Bentley on 2002-02-23 10:26 ] |
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