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what is the deal with "valve alignment"?


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saxophonist56
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:32 pm    Post subject: what is the deal with "valve alignment"? Reply with quote

i don't know what is they do and why it makes a difference. the valves are not lining accurately? does this mean the holes in the valves are not lining up with the tubing? thx in advance. how much do they charge for it? is it something that's not really necessary?
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A "valve alignment" is intended to correct misalignment of the valve ports with the tubing of the horn. There are some people who think that having a valve alignment done is a critical part of preparing a horn to perform at its best. I doubt it's that simple.

Any time you change anything about a horn you technically change some characteristic of the way the horn plays. A valve alignment might reduce the horn's resistance by improving the alignment of the valve ports to the tubing, but does this always improve the performance of the horn? Not necessarily if the horn performs better for you with more resistance.

It's probably fair to say that the more out of alignment your valves are the more likely a valve alignment will produce an overall improvement in your horn's performance. But it's still a matter of opinion that depends on the individual player. Of course, it's possible to have such extensive misalignment that there's no question the performance of the horn is compromised and in those situations a valve alignment would always improve things.

This topic is similar in principle to talking about compression. "Compression" refers to the amount of air leakage around the valves. Does better compression mean a better performing horn? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends a lot on the player. I read an article that described the efforts of the F.E. Olds Company as they developed their "Mendez" model. The article said that Rafael Mendez wanted his personal "Mendez" model to have lower compression (more air leakage) than the F.E. Olds Company designed the model to have. To him lowering the compression made the horn better.

To each his own.

So topics such as "valve alignment," "compression," "bracing", "metal composition," metal thickness," "horn weight", etc. tend to be controversial, they generate many conflicting opinions.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a ridiculous response. Unless you're playing a trumpet shaped, haphazardly assembled collection of tubing. I'm sure that designers of high quality instruments have perfected their designs assuming that the valve ports would align with the tubing. Whether or not the company deems it cost effective to assemble the trumpets that way is another matter.

Quote:
does this mean the holes in the valves are not lining up with the tubing?

Yes, and it's always better to have them line up than not. Do a search on the topic.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
What a ridiculous response.


Didn't your parents teach you any manners?
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saxophonist56
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
What a ridiculous response. Unless you're playing a trumpet shaped, haphazardly assembled collection of tubing. I'm sure that designers of high quality instruments have perfected their designs assuming that the valve ports would align with the tubing. Whether or not the company deems it cost effective to assemble the trumpets that way is another matter.

Quote:
does this mean the holes in the valves are not lining up with the tubing?

Yes, and it's always better to have them line up than not. Do a search on the topic.


yeah i agree with the no manners comment. i thought it was a thoughtful insightful and enlightening response. love to try the mendez olds now.

ps. it sounds like a "calibration" of a plasma tv. i had it done. never used the setting after the initial week. there's a reason they have default settings on plasma tvs.
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I've never had a horn that played worse after a valve alignment. Maybe someone has and they can let us know here.

Eb
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laurent
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
A "valve alignment" is intended to correct misalignment of the valve ports with the tubing of the horn. There are some people who think that having a valve alignment done is a critical part of preparing a horn to perform at its best. I doubt it's that simple.
...


I agree with you in almost all, but since I've had the opportunity to align myself the valves of my trumpets about two years ago - with the help of a cheap, but surprisingly good borescope -, I will add some remarks.

An improved valve alignment can make a horn sound better, but it can make it sound worse as well: depends on the horn, and the preferences of the player.
For example when I checked the valve alignment of my Stomvi Forte (which played and sounded very well, that being said), I was really surprised to see that it could be noticeably improved.
Once the valves were perfectly aligned I tested the horn, and found that although the blow hadn't changed at all, the nice tone of the Forte had become awful and its usually great playability had disappeared...
So I just removed the washers that I had added, and instantly my Stomvi Forte recovered its nice tone, fast response and great playability!

When I modified the valve alignment of my other trumpets, I also discovered that a "formally perfect" alignment wasn't always the one that gives the more open blow... Sometimes a certain amount of misalignment improves the response / playability of the horn AND really opens up the blow!

This may sound strange, but not that much if we realize that the resistance / response of a horn is much less a matter of air circulation, than a matter of standing wave formation. And looks like the circulation of the air and the formation / expansion of a wave, just don't obey to the same rules...

So in my experience, how the valves line up with the tubing is REALLY a VERY important point, and modifying the valve alignment can transfigure the way a horn plays. But it doesn't always act the way you're expecting to, though...
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Comeback
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

laurent wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
A "valve alignment" is intended to correct misalignment of the valve ports with the tubing of the horn. There are some people who think that having a valve alignment done is a critical part of preparing a horn to perform at its best. I doubt it's that simple.
...


I agree with you in almost all, but since I've had the opportunity to align myself the valves of my trumpets about two years ago - with the help of a cheap, but surprisingly good borescope -, I will add some remarks.

An improved valve alignment can make a horn sound better, but it can make it sound worse as well: depends on the horn, and the preferences of the player.
For example when I checked the valve alignment of my Stomvi Forte (which played and sounded very well, that being said), I was really surprised to see that it could be noticeably improved.
Once the valves were perfectly aligned I tested the horn, and found that although the blow hadn't changed at all, the nice tone of the Forte had become awful and its usually great playability had disappeared...
So I just removed the washers that I had added, and instantly my Stomvi Forte recovered its nice tone, fast response and great playability!

When I modified the valve alignment of my other trumpets, I also discovered that a "formally perfect" alignment wasn't always the one that gives the more open blow... Sometimes a certain amount of misalignment improves the response / playability of the horn AND really opens up the blow!

This may sound strange, but not that much if we realize that the resistance / response of a horn is much less a matter of air circulation, than a matter of standing wave formation. And looks like the circulation of the air and the formation / expansion of a wave, just don't obey to the same rules...

So in my experience, how the valves line up with the tubing is REALLY a VERY important point, and modifying the valve alignment can transfigure the way a horn plays. But it doesn't always act the way you're expecting to, though...

Thoughtful, helpful post, laurent. Thank you!
Jim
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always an interesting topic.... I know that one point of view is that trumpet makers don't take/have the time to do a "perfect" alignment. The "perfect" alignment supposedly is one of a technical nature which can be measured with precise instruments.... It would seem that this approach would be more accurate and in some ways easy to repeat fairly quickly?

Another view is that manufacturers just bang the valves in willy nilly with little regard for alignment due to cost/time constraints and we are left with trumpets that are out of alignment and inferior.

I am curious if the approach is more subjective by some where the valves are aligned so that the trumpet blows and sounds good based on years of experience of hearing a particular brand of instrument. I have had the valves of several trumpet replated/fitted/aligned by Dr. Valve and my guess is that he play tests during his alignment to set up the horn to play well. I would love to hear his thoughts on this as an expert in the field....I know he is always busy so I won't bother him. I imagine some opinions could be influenced by the after sales market.

If I had an expert like Dr. Valve near me I would get all my horns done based on the alignment/play test theory.

Walter
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oldblow
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A question that has crossed my mind has been the relationship between the bore of a horn and size of openings in the valve block. If a horn measured .453, does the opening in the valve itself need to be exactly the same, or does any valve block fill the build? Perhaps one of the horn builders can comment?

Another thought is about the "bump" in the opening of the valve itself. Does this intentionally produce turbulence of alter the shape of the sound wave in a predictable way?
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oldblow wrote:

Another thought is about the "bump" in the opening of the valve itself. Does this intentionally produce turbulence of alter the shape of the sound wave in a predictable way?


I play a cornet with no "bumps" in the valves. It is really quite amazing.

On my Wild Thing trumpet, if I play a fourth space E open, 1 and 2, and 123, pre-seting a little extension of the first and third slides to get tuner tested intonation the same, I hear a tiny increase of "shrillness" in the timbre as additional valves are added.

On the Wedgwood cornet, this simply does not happen.

Other players who have done this test with my cornet agree with the result.

Players argue and argue over .001" of bore difference, then they have these significant restrictions in the valves.

Conn was once looking into buying the patent rights on the unrestricted valve design but nothing came of it. The trade off is a fatter valve so the finger spacing is a bit wider -- I can reach all four 10ths on a piano keyboard so the width question doesn't bother me at all.

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Last edited by tommy t. on Thu May 30, 2013 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a normal person doesn't have gunsmith skills. it doesn't matter because that's what gunsmiths are for. a gun can be handed over mutely on a make it better please basis and if you have gone to the right person, you're in luck.
the same principle applies across all machine goods. you might not understand all the ramifications of how and why your trumpet plays. the technician has a closer idea.
give flip oakes the license for example and he will not only correct the vertical alignment, but unsolder and do the radial alignment. then there is presumably some aspect of experience where he has the idea beforehand what it needs and what it should get.
there are easily a dozen brass technicians at the top of their game who are regularly talked about here. when you change money, it matters who with.
..chuck
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:

Didn't your parents teach you any manners?

If my parents were feeding me a line of bs like you typed in your response, I would choose to resist that teaching.

The amount of resistance a player may prefer in an instrument is a separate issue from valve alignment. The alignment of the valves is critical to having a uniform response and sound through all registers. It is not how you adjust the resistance a given horn has. That logic is like being afraid to clean your horn because it may be too open for you.

Experimenting with mpcs, gaps, and different trumpet designs is how you find what resistance you like. A change in tuning slide could make a big difference without effecting the uniformity of sound and response.

This is not saying that there haven't been many great players that have put in the hours learning to compensate for the inadequacies of their instrument. And maybe those ingrained adjustments are difficult to override when they have their horn set up properly. I think in the long run it would be worth it though.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retlaw wrote:

I am curious if the approach is more subjective by some where the valves are aligned so that the trumpet blows and sounds good based on years of experience of hearing a particular brand of instrument. I have had the valves of several trumpet replated/fitted/aligned by Dr. Valve and my guess is that he play tests during his alignment to set up the horn to play well.

I have heard stories of alignment nightmares where the radial alignment could not be corrected because the holes were not drilled to line up with the tubing. In that case, yes - a player/technician can determine which holes need to line up for the best result.
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
Retlaw wrote:

I am curious if the approach is more subjective by some where the valves are aligned so that the trumpet blows and sounds good based on years of experience of hearing a particular brand of instrument. I have had the valves of several trumpet replated/fitted/aligned by Dr. Valve and my guess is that he play tests during his alignment to set up the horn to play well.

I have heard stories of alignment nightmares where the radial alignment could not be corrected because the holes were not drilled to line up with the tubing. In that case, yes - a player/technician can determine which holes need to line up for the best result.


I would question anyone buying a horn that far out....no I was referring to the good old process of the artist who has good ears and a tuner and knows when it a comes together and a horn plays well. I believe such a person is Dr. Valve who worked for Schilke and fitted their valves and eventually ending up play testing the horns before they went out the door.

This of course begs the question..."Did those horns then need a valve alignment"?

Walter
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HA! There is a particular brand in question, very famous and infamous for that condition. I know Reeves aligned a lot of them.

As for Schilke, I too would like to know if since he was spending so much time fitting and play testing, did Dr. Valve also ensure the alignment? I bought my B5L in 1977 and played it for about 15 years. It played better after alignment.

I still have my custom 14B4E that was made at that time, probably by Laskey? Great mpc - quality.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was becoming frustrated with my Bach 184 a couple years ago because of the difficult upper register. I took it to a local tech and he measured the upward alignment and found all 3 valves to be almost 1/8" off! Some new pads of the correct thickness and it was like night and day. I suppose I had gradually compressed them by flushing the horn out with water as a "quick cleaning", which got the pads wet. Over time, they had become very thin. Anyway, it really made a difference in my case.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: what is the deal with "valve alignment"? Reply with quote

saxophonist56 wrote:
i don't know what is they do and why it makes a difference. the valves are not lining accurately? does this mean the holes in the valves are not lining up with the tubing? thx in advance. how much do they charge for it? is it something that's not really necessary?

There's some degree of consensus that valves that are better aligned do in fact play better. How bad stock horns are and how big a deal it is is a matter of opinion. Equally important is that with conventional felt pads vertical alignment shifts over time as the felts compress and that this causes the horn to be inconsistently aligned. While I've had all my horns aligned I've only noticed minor differences in how the horns play. Maybe the horns weren't that bad or maybe I'm not that sensitive...don't know. My Reeves alignment also replaces the felt pads with a much more precise and durable pads so that my alignment is much more consistent.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crzytptman wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:

Didn't your parents teach you any manners?

If my parents were feeding me a line of bs like you typed in your response, I would choose to resist that teaching.


We're not talking about teaching. We're talking about manners. Courtesy costs nothing and courtesy is a characteristic of a gentleman. You can disagree with someone in a courteous manner. When you choose, instead, to disagree in an insulting manner you devalue yourself and place your credibility in doubt. As Shakespeare said, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Now, a simple lesson in physics:

Take one of your valves out of your horn. Now, rotate it 180 degrees and reinsert it into the horn. Now that valve isn't aligned. Go ahead and play the horn. It's got a lot more resistance now, doesn't it? So, I guess you're wrong. Valve alignment can affect resistance and some horns need rotational alignment as well as vertical alignment.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1/8 is actually thicker than the original pad.
those pads are about .085 thick, and 1/8 is a whopping .125 thick.

you are saying that you had a compressed pad in there, and they were still .125 off....

thats not possible

this subject always appeals to people sense of mystery. Alignment is simple.

get the ports to line up as nicely as possible. Sometimes you get the port on one side to line up, but then that same valve won't line up on the opposite side. That happens fairly often. So when you hear someone say this valve was .015 off, it does not tell the story. The best alignment involves SOMETIMES finding a compromise between opposite side equally off. Sometimes you get the passageway between the valves aligned on the downstroke and that makes the slide ports off a little bit so you need to compromise again. Sometimes the radial alignment is off too, but not as often. Some makers are better at this historically than others, but all horns have some quirks.

if the ports are within about .005, or visually lined up you are pretty good to go. You can see .005.
You need to measure the port in the piston and the port in the casing too. Sometimes one is bigger than the other, which makes it hard to measure and see visually whats going on. Benges have oversized holes in the casing on some of the ports. Some horns have oversized piston ports as a feature.....lots of variables going on, but its still a simple thing, that you can look at and see with a mirror or bore scope or measure with various tools.

If you make a tool make sure to measure to the actual inside of the cap, not the top of the casing. There is a gap between the top of the casing and the bottom surface of the cap. That gap on a bach is about .040 on a bach, but it can be from .030 to .050. There you have a possible .020 variance right there. getting new caps is something people don't think about. They could get new caps and get a perfect or close alignment just by replacing the pads every year or so. That is of course IF the new caps had the right gap inside. Reeves actually adjusts that surface so that refreshing the the alignment is just a matter getting new reeves pads. His method is really good cuz of that alone.
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