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Bach with C and Bb slides


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trackday
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Bach with C and Bb slides Reply with quote

Is there anything wrong with a Bach with C and Bb slides? If not, why are there not more sold like that??
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LH123
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A multi-keyed instrument is always a big compromise - usually these play OK in one key and awfully in the other. Any serious performer is going to want dedicated C and Bb trumpets, not a combo.
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dmessier
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Bach C with full length 25S leadpipe. In this configuration, the Bb slides actually work out surprisingly well.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe not Bach but there are manufacturer's who make dual-key Bb/C trumpets. Check out the relatively new one by Kanstul. From what's been posted here folks tend to consider it acceptable but not on par with the dedicated key horns.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was talking with Steve Winans about vintage Buescher horns, and he mentioned that he was working on a Parlor Grand C/Bb/A and that he was surprised to find that it played lots better in C than it did in Bb.

Just an amusing anecdote, those horns are very hard to find.

Tom
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Bach with C and Bb slides Reply with quote

trackday wrote:
Is there anything wrong with a Bach with C and Bb slides? If not, why are there not more sold like that??


Because 95% of Bach C's play like crap in Bb. Well, if not crap, they're at least very mediocre.

Those slides are sold to folks who think - "Gee, that'll be useful." It sounds cool and handy. Then they put them in and realize that their old TR300 or Old Ambassador plays 2-3 times better than their Bach C does in Bb, let alone their Strad. Then the slides sit in the case for 20 years. When the Bach C gets sold, the owner tosses them in the deal, because they're of no use to them anymore. Or they get sold without the horn in a set. Rinse and repeat.

The real Bach Bb slides are a set of 4 slides, not just the tuning slide - for your information. Some are floating out there with just the one slide, but there were 3 others originally. It's really bad if you just use the tuning slide by itself.

LH123 wrote:
A multi-keyed instrument is always a big compromise - usually these play OK in one key and awfully in the other. Any serious performer is going to want dedicated C and Bb trumpets, not a combo.


Exactly. There are probably some exceptions, but this is the rule. The exceptions are few and far between (thus, them being exceptions). I don't doubt that a solitary trumpet or model plays well in both Bb and C, but there are very few that do so.

Plus, the Bach C isn't even a multi-keyed instrument. It's a C trumpet. Put Bb slides on it and it's a C trumpet that's got longer slides on it.

There's more differences between a good C and a good Bb than the length of the slides.
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Lawler Bb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only Bach C trumpet that plays well with Bb slides is one that has slides from M/K. It makes a very playable horn in Bb with good pitch, it just feels a little different from a regular Bb trumpet.
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lgt0412
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a Strad C (239 bell) with Bb slides all through high school. At the time, never having had lessons I didn't realize how hard I was having to work to play it in tune. When I got to college the first thing my teacher told me to do was to buy a real Bb. It was amazing how easy it was to play in tune once I did! lol ..... I do think it made me more sensitive to being in tune though. Something I am thankful for now!!
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I used to have a set of Bach Bb slides for my Bach Strad C trumpet. It was a 239 with the standard 25C mouthpipe. It was only a so-so Bb instrument with the slides, so I bought a good Bb trumpet and sold the slides on eBay (after they had sat in the closet for 15 years). I got almost 3 times what I originally paid for them, so no harm done...
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lgt0412
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
so I bought a good Bb trumpet and sold the slides on eBay (after they had sat in the closet for 15 years). I got almost 3 times what I originally paid for them


I traded my slides (plus a few mouthpieces) to Dillon Music for a Torpedobag classic. One of the best deals I've ever made! lol
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jpdtpt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never played a C horn with appropriate Bb slides, (except to play test for fun) but once in a while at church, I will put my Bach Bb slide in my Bach C, and use it as a B trumpet, when the organist plays hymns down a half step, and I don't want to sight-transpose. Generally, it plays better in B than in C, and although I don't have valve slides for it, I pull the 2nd slide a bit, and hold the others out a bit more than I normally might.

John D.
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benlewis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Schilke system of Bb to C is very good. While I was still and active duty Navy musician, I bought a CX with Bb slides that was very good on both sides. The reason the Bachs play poorly in Bb is the the gap at the tuning slide is the same for Bb and C; Schilke uses two extension tubes and the existing tuning slide, rather than just one long slide. This puts the gaps exactly where they would be if the horn was constructed in Bb. I was frankly surprised at how well the horn played. Unfortunately, while the intonation and evenness of the horn was great (as I feel is true of all Schilke products), I needed a different sound for C.

I believe if you had one of the fine craftsmen such as Jim Becker or Ken Larson construct a set of extension tubes for a Bach, it would play much better in Bb.

IMHO

Ben
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trackday
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.

There is an Olds LA Ambassador on ebay that was 'converted' from Bb to C. Of the restoration, it says 'This horn has been Completely RESTORED and then MODIFIED at Crown Resources Laboratory in Glens Falls, NY.'

Though I don't doubt they are qualified, is this a suspect conversion? Still better to go with a C trumpet that was born a C?
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richardwy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trackday wrote:
Still better to go with a C trumpet that was born a C?


Yup
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good C is hard to find and a less than ideal one will make you hate life. I advise that you buy a C from a major manufacturer and even then only after trying a big pile of them. The only other safe option is to get a conversion from a major shop with a strong reputation for doing so like Malone or Larson.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

benlewis wrote:
The Schilke system of Bb to C is very good. While I was still and active duty Navy musician, I bought a CX with Bb slides that was very good on both sides. The reason the Bachs play poorly in Bb is the the gap at the tuning slide is the same for Bb and C; Schilke uses two extension tubes and the existing tuning slide, rather than just one long slide. This puts the gaps exactly where they would be if the horn was constructed in Bb. I was frankly surprised at how well the horn played. Unfortunately, while the intonation and evenness of the horn was great (as I feel is true of all Schilke products), I needed a different sound for C.

I believe if you had one of the fine craftsmen such as Jim Becker or Ken Larson construct a set of extension tubes for a Bach, it would play much better in Bb.

IMHO

Ben


When I was at U of Minnesota in the late '60's a number of Steve Chenette's students bought schilke C's with the Bb slides and they worked really well. The symphony was using C7's (M bore)so that was the most popular model. One friend got a C5 (L bore) sounded fine on it.
The slide extinsions in conjunction with the long reverse leadpipe made the system work really well.
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Trombacan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Bb/C Reply with quote

Quote:
Still better to go with a C trumpet that was born a C?

Absolutely!
I had a colleague that played his Bach Bb/C in the section for an opera week - one of the longest weeks of my life
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Yogadidit
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a MV Bach C with Bb slides. I struggled with intonation for years before getting a used Schilke and realized how much easier it was to stay in tune. I now only play the Bach horn in C. Get a large bore C, even if you normally play a ML bore horn. Then decide if you need a different mouthpiece for your C versus the Bb that you also play.
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dmamazon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add to the above poster, M/K drawing makes the C to Bb set and it seems to have some great reviews..
I want to try it but don't have an extra $600 or so lying around lol! Would love to hear my Bach Philadelphia with those slides.

http://www.mkdrawing.com/bach.html

I've only tried two horns with the Bach Bb/C slides..both 229 bell horns. The C side was ok...the Bb side..well...was very weird on BOTH horns...and the intonation was very poor.
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trackday
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are a very helpful crowd. I have ordered a C trumpet. Thank you.
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