When to start Teaching Transposition?

[trumpet56]

I have a young student who is transitioning from learner (finished Bk1&2 of Essential Elements) to beginner. I am wondering at what stage of the process is an optimum time to teach transposition?

[PW-Factor]

I think until they really start to grasp some concept of music theory it can be dangerous. They think of all these fake ways to learn it without being able to just think in terms of key, key signature, etc.

So I would say once a student has a really solid grasp on all 12 keys (through Clarke, Arban's, etc) then I would start talking about transposing.
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[irith]

While it might have benefits to starting early, I personally don't think it's worthwhile to start until the student encounters or expresses an interest in orchestra playing.

A better use of time before that would be more intensive ear training or solfege. There are many more developing students that could benefit from a great ear than those that would be helped by knowing transposition.
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[rockford]

Sometimes the younger guys come in with a piano song book or church hymnal and they need to know transposition to concert pitch. Often that involves writing out what they need rather than truly transposing. For most high school students that's as far as they need to get into it. Someone that wants to major in music and play in orchestras obviously needs to do a lot more. A good point to start is when they are comfortable playing in all key signatures as written and can sight read fairly well.
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[plankowner110]

You didn't mention the student's age. Two reasons why beginning bands are started in 5th grade (age 10-11) and not sooner are physical and cognitive development. Understanding the concepts of pitch and notation is a complex learning process, and I would simply suggest that the student masters this completely before you introduce a very abstract concept like transposition which could frustrate the student. What's the rush anyway?

Good luck. It sounds like your student is making fine progress with the Essential Elements books. By the time a student completes book 2, he/she will know 90% of the rhythmic concepts required for high school band. A second time through the book will help reinforce those concepts in the learner.

Bill
Retired band director
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[trpthrld]

I "introduce" transposition early on in lessons, like as soon as we start studying scales.

I start with explaining why it's called a "Bb" trumpet because in band class they've already heard the term "concert" with different instruments starting on a different note yet everyone sounding the same.

Then I explain that the D major scale is the C major scale, transposed up a step, and that by learning scales they are also learning transposition.

I do it like this to show them that transposition, while it is a learned skill, is not all that difficult to understand the basics. I've had a lot of success with this approach.

Actual "study" of transposition comes later, but because they've been introduced to it, acquired skill and dexterity is achieved much easier and sooner.
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[Donjon]

I like to introduce it as a concept relatively early. I like to work on the C major and D major scales, then get them to play 'When the saints' in C. Then we work through it in D and write it out and show them the notes numerically; 1, 3, 4, 5 etc.

Rather than just working on transposition, we're working on developing concepts of keys and why we need them. I think this is a great preparation for transposition.
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[JWG]

Depends on the student's age.

My son is a natural/intuitive transposer; he started transposing for fun at age 6 and by his first recital at age 8 he could transpose America the Beautiful into 8 keys.

My daughter is not a natural transposer; despite her higher IQ and exceptionally fast reading ability (tested at 700+ wpm), she has trouble with transposing even at age 12.

I am a terrible transposer. I had trouble transposing everything except from concert pitch to Bb trumpet. I still confound French horn and Alto/Bari sax into concert pitch and/or Bb trumpet all the time. However, I started working on transposition a little last year when I started arranging some small ensemble music for my daughter and made a lot of progress in a short time.

So, I would suggest that it depends on the student's natural ability and on his/her musical "maturity".
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[trumpet56]

Thank you for your posts. There is some very useful information. This particular student is 9 years old and plays in the schools Orchestra. If any of you know about beginner strings their favorite key is D major which means the Bb instruments have to play in the key of E, quite a step up from her study material so far.

This student is what I would call a 'lifer' and gifted. She is small for her age and I started her off last year on a cornet because of her size which she had no problem filling. Her parents purchased a good second hand professional trumpet for her at the beginning of this year. I thought she would have some difficulty transitioning to a larger bore instrument however she proved me wrong by easily filling a large studio with her sound. Just proves to me again that playing the trumpet is about efficiency not brute strength.

[Capt.Kirk]

I would say this. When do you teach a kid Calculus? If they are Math-letes some kid have learned it at the ripe age of 4 or taught themselves from a book by middle school. On the other hand some adults can not grasp it at all no matter how smart they might be. I am insanely smart but can not spell my way out of a wet paper sack. Well not in English at least my Latin and Greek for instance are 10X better with regards to spelling.

I would treat it like math. You can test the water's fairly easy and see if they are ready or not.

Time would prob. be better spent though on Music Theory "General" and Ear Training. I would suggests he or she know all of the major and minor scales in Bb if we are talking a young trumpet player before thinking about transposing!

I had a really hard strict teacher from 5th grade through 8th we had to know all the major scales and minor scales and be able to actually play them all more often then not before we could even think of joining "advanced band". 5th grade was heavy on Theory and Ear Training. I do not think Public Schools really push Theory or Ear Training much. So all of us are coming from different backgrounds and different teaching and learning styles. Kind of hard with out knowing the student and their level of understanding how to proceed!

Also I attend a lot of festivals and I can tell you that most H.S. band students have really bad sight reading skills. If you can not sight read well chances are strong that you will not be able to transpose on the fly well either. Transposing to a another key is alot like reading a text in say Russian and typing it in English on the fly or doing a transposition cipher with out paper and pencil etc.....You can do it but you have to know the code forwards and backwards to the point that no conscious thought is involved. You do not have time to think when playing music if you are struggling with reading the music, the phrasing the dynamics etc.....You have to know the song inside and out before you can drift off and think about your tax's while playing!

I was good at it when I did it all the time but I am rusty now. On top of that what is the point of a kid learning this skill long before they need it? If you do not need a skill and do not practice it often you tend to get rusty quickly. Not like a young kid is going to need to look at a part in C and play his Bb to that. Almost all church music programs have their music scored for many different instruments and in common keys. Gone are the days of having to own a C trumpet to play music at Church or Transpose. I attend a little tiny Mission Church with next to no budget for their music program and even they have sheet music in Bb for trumpet parts. You never know what you have when you travel to other venues or other churches.

With all the things kids have to learn that they think they will never use and is just useless info why toss more on that plate? Wait until they have the foundation and the need and it is much more likely that they will get it and use it!! There are so many things that are so much more important to learn on the trumpet then transposition.
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[Hugh Anderson]

They should at least be comfortable with a few scales, and be aware of the scale degree they are on with each note. That also helps with playing 'by ear' and improvising.

[Billy B]

As soon as they can play a tune we play it in several different keys. All by ear.
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[Sycil]

Like any other skill such as transposition, I'd highly recommend exercising that part of the brain in different ways. I.e., for transposition, learning/playing chess strengthens the spatial awareness of the brain. In chess, you have to calculate variations without moving pieces on the board. As with transposition, the brains ability to see what is not on the page becomes the task. My teacher from high school/college assigned tons and tons of transposition for which I am truly grateful to this day.

[dkwolfe]

[tpter1]

[JoseLindE4]

[tpter1]

[JoseLindE4]

And here I was about to make a joke about trumpet in H. In my book, anyone who writes in the key of Cb deserves a few wrong notes in their music, just like people who beam 8ths and 16ths awkwardly. We should be prepared, but it's nice when composers and publishers think in terms of readability and we should shame those who don't.

[Craig Swartz]

Wow- 2013 thread... Anyway, Tim nailed it as far as I'm concerned. Instrument pitch in relation to concert pitch should be explained early on.

While we didn't actually transpose at sight in my 6-8th grade bands back when I was teaching, I could call out a scale in concert pitch to the ensemble and the students would locate the proper scale and play it durning our warm up period. Students could also identify from concert pitch to their tone on written tests. Not very difficult, just took some patience to get it across. These were poor, inner city kids, too, not a lot of rocket-scientists-to-be as far as general opportunities were concerned. (They were also some of the best kids anyone ever had a chance to teach, though.) I devised a step-by-step handout years ago on how to transpose to/from concert pitch. Lots of other home-brewed handouts as well. I should scan all that junk and put it up somewhere- I did it long before anyone was doing things on computers...

[razeontherock]