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KansasTrumpet
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billybobb
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 Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: what is the deal with "valve alignment"? |
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| saxophonist56 wrote: | | i don't know what is they do and why it makes a difference. the valves are not lining accurately? does this mean the holes in the valves are not lining up with the tubing? thx in advance. how much do they charge for it? is it something that's not really necessary? |
Others have explained what the process is but as far as the price, it's just like most things on a trumpet.......prices vary. I've seen them from $80 on up. |
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Dale Proctor
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | 1/8 is actually thicker than the original pad.
those pads are about .085 thick, and 1/8 is a whopping .125 thick.
you are saying that you had a compressed pad in there, and they were still .125 off....
thats not possible... |
Ok, I said almost...  Maybe they were .080 off, as the old ones were very thin. And, who knows if it had ,or now has, the stock thickness pads? Just making a point, and looking at what came out and what went in, there was a significant visual difference.
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chapahi
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
A valve alignment might reduce the horn's resistance by improving the alignment of the valve ports to the tubing, but does this always improve the performance of the horn? Not necessarily if the horn performs better for you with more resistance.
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If the valve alignment makes the horn too open, then the player can compensate that by getting a more efficient mouthpiece.
When the valves are out of alignment, the horn's overall resitance varies depending on what valve combination is being played. The valve alignment evens out that variance in resitance and makes the horn play more consitantly throughout the valve combinations and registers.
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royjohn
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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An interesting thread. . . if your horn is precision manufactured, then a precision valve alignment to 0.001" would be a good idea and make the horn as free blowing as possible. The problem is, as several have noted, that manufacture is seldom that precise. Often the upstroke and the downstroke do not both precisely align and in that case an approximation (compromise) would be necessary to get the best possible response out of the horn. So measurements are good, but trying the horn and deciding what to do by ear would be the ultimate decision point.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . . |
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Mark Curry
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale Proctor wrote: | | lipshurt wrote: | 1/8 is actually thicker than the original pad.
those pads are about .085 thick, and 1/8 is a whopping .125 thick.
you are saying that you had a compressed pad in there, and they were still .125 off....
thats not possible... |
Ok, I said almost... Maybe they were .080 off, as the old ones were very thin. And, who knows if it had ,or now has, the stock thickness pads? Just making a point, and looking at what came out and what went in, there was a significant visual difference. |
Just adding to the conversation here...
The replacement Bach top rubbers (part # 30023Z) I've been supplying with my Bach Strad XXCAPS kit have been .100" thick for the last 10 years or so and they're made of the newer, modern high-density foam as opposed to the rubber compound used years ago that used to harden, crack and deform.
I'm sure there's some formula they use to figure for pad compression (valve down-stroke force) and the hardness of the material used.
More- many of the older Mount Vernon pistons required that the stem shaft length be about .05" longer than the Elkhart horns as well.
And Doug's correct about there being a gap between the top of the valve casing and the inside top surface of the valve cap. It can vary from valve-to-valve on the same horn.
So when you get your horn back from an alignment (or PVA), ideally, every fingerbutton, stem, and top cap should be marked (or scribed) with the valve number to insure correct re-assembly.
mc
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VetPsychWars
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Curry wrote: |
So when you get your horn back from an alignment (or PVA), ideally, every fingerbutton, stem, and top cap should be marked (or scribed) with the valve number to insure correct re-assembly.
mc |
Unless it was done that way to begin with
tom
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Cadenza
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| While on this topic, and supposing that you like to work on your horn and have a borescope suitable for PVAs, is there a good source for an assortment of felt/synthetic pads in various useful thicknesses? |
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Mark Curry
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Cadenza wrote: | | While on this topic, and supposing that you like to work on your horn and have a borescope suitable for PVAs, is there a good source for an assortment of felt/synthetic pads in various useful thicknesses? |
Kraus Music Products in OR.
they've got most pad varieties in thicknesses varying by 10 thou, i.e., Bach Strad pads from about .05" up to .120" or so.
In two hardnesses, 12 and 16 (maybe more). IMO the softest of the pads end up being a little too squishy for my taste. go with the harder pads to minimize this.
mc
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| HERMOKIWI wrote: |
Now, a simple lesson in physics:
Take one of your valves out of your horn. Now, rotate it 180 degrees and reinsert it into the horn. Now that valve isn't aligned. Go ahead and play the horn. It's got a lot more resistance now, doesn't it? So, I guess you're wrong. Valve alignment can affect resistance and some horns need rotational alignment as well as vertical alignment.
I'm surprised you didn't know that. |
I think you should read this again. I never said that unaligned valves doesn't increase resistance. That's the reason to get the alignment. A simple lesson in physics: valves out of alignment disrupts the standing wave causing the horn to feel resistant. I take exception to you inferring that a player should use unaligned valves to dial in the resistance to his preference. That is ridiculous. But I don't mean that in a bad way.
| Quote: | The amount of resistance a player may prefer in an instrument is a separate issue from valve alignment. The alignment of the valves is critical to having a uniform response and sound through all registers. It is not how you adjust the resistance a given horn has. That logic is like being afraid to clean your horn because it may be too open for you.
Experimenting with mpcs, gaps, and different trumpet designs is how you find what resistance you like. A change in tuning slide could make a big difference without effecting the uniformity of sound and response.
This is not saying that there haven't been many great players that have put in the hours learning to compensate for the inadequacies of their instrument. And maybe those ingrained adjustments are difficult to override when they have their horn set up properly. I think in the long run it would be worth it though. |
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Retlaw
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| Posted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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I can see how alignment can affect resistance..how does it affect sound/tuning...etc?
Good point Tom...
Walter
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:30 am Post subject: |
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The mis-alignment of valves creates a disturbance in the standing wave. The resistance created by this disturbance is different with each valve combination. The disturbance can interfere with the resonance. The horns I have played a lot and then had aligned:
Schilke B5L
Getzen Eterna 4V flugel
Callet Jazz
Bach 72*
Pocket Max
All were improved in projection, resonance, intonation, and uniformity of sound and response throughout all registers - while retaining their characteristic sound. In addition, many of my students have had PVAs done on their horns, and all were improved in these same areas.
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musicalmason1
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 3:19 am Post subject: |
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Yes, Kraus music products sells the best pads available for this, but good luck buying them from him. He doesn't sell to general consumers and unlike some other retailers who claim to only sell to shops, it is rather difficult to open an account with him.
On a side note, the only thing "ridiculous" about using misaligned valves to dial in resistance is the fact that it would be very time consuming and probably quite expensive to dial in effectively. There are much easier ways to accomplish this, like interchangeable backbores/mp gaps. In principle however, it could work, and if a player ever approached me wanting to spend the hours it would take to play the horn over and over again with slightly different/misaligned valves, I would do it. In general, I have to agree with lipshurt. Just like almost all aspects of trumpet playing, valve alignment is generally a compromise. As long as everything is visually as good as possible, getting it down to .0001 (on one port) won't be exponentially better than just visually aligned.
Keep in mind there are many places inside a horn where there are changes in diameter and little ridges and slides overlap, like your standard tuning slide for example, and they are accepted as part of the horns designed and a factor in how resistant a horn is.
For the record I'm not saying the valve alignment isn't important, I am saying that it is just another factor in horn construction. Also, if your valves are close (visually) and you send the horn out for a pva, make sure it is reversible. I have heard of many people who liked the horn better before the pva and wanted it back. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I know of one trumpet design in particular that utilizes extremely thin inner slides to minimize the bump, especially the initial gap between leadpipe and tuning slide. However, that is a fixed area of turbulence as opposed to a continually variable resistance and turbulence with unaligned valves. Unless of course, you are performing your PVU (Precision Valve Unalignment) using non-compressible pads.
My Bach was visually extremely close when viewed with a fiber optic, and played like a good Bach. After PVA it is a great player. I have never known anyone who has reversed a PVA, but my experience is only with Reeves and Oakes.
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
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Brad361
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| KansasTrumpet wrote: |  |
+1!
Brad361
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maynard-46
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:49 am Post subject: what is the deal with "valve alignment"? |
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| Quote: | | I have never known anyone who has reversed a PVA, but my experience is only with Reeves and Oakes. |
Nate,
I've been told on good authority that Faddis had his horn PVA'd ...didn't like it...and had it reversed. This was a few years ago.
Butch |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Well, that settles it! I'm sending my horn to musicalmason1 for a PVU.
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
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RandyTX
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | I have never known anyone who has reversed a PVA, but my experience is only with Reeves and Oakes. |
I know of one, an orchestral player, who had it done to a Yamaha artist C. Didn't like the results at all. I think Reeves did it for him. He spoke to Yamaha's pro shop people about it, and they said it was understandable. Apparently they were of the opinion that they set the alignment up a particular way to make the horn work best that way.
Somehow (I don't know or pretend to understand the details) a conventional valve alignment somehow took something away from the horn. He had the PVA reversed and has been happy with it since then.
Note: I am not claiming this is true for most, or even any other model trumpets. But it is the only example I have encountered of someone actively disliking the results of a PVA. |
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Peter Bond
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| KansasTrumpet wrote: | |
Hahaha. Beautiful! |
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RL
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Didn't read the whole topic.....but....
Most valves have some moving "space" horizontal not only vertical....you'll notice when you "turn" the valves a little...maybe this could have an effect as well. (??) |
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