what is the deal with "valve alignment"?

[connicalman]

[Venturi]

A key issue about PVAs and whether they accomplish anything or not is how far out of alignment a horn's valves are to begin with.

The more "out" a valve is to begin with, the more likely a PVA will provide some benefit.

Perhaps some THers can post their "out-of-alignment" measurements (typically given by techs in fractions or an inch for each valve) beforehand and how the horn's playing changed following alignment.

An easy experiment to get some perspective on all this is to play a horn with a valve pressed just a fraction of an inch or so and see what that does.

[Dan O'Donnell]

I used to think PVAs were not important and the benefits were non-detectable by myself...an amateur player, however, I was wrong.

I had Bob Reeves align the valves on my...

Besson Brevete by Kanstul (After Jason Harrelson added his 909 mod with new top caps and buttons)

Kanstul "Master" Cornet

Getzen Genesis

Kanstul 925 Flugelhorn

Kanstul 1510 C Trumpet

In one of my older posts, I documented the dimensions regarding the out of alignment for both upstroke and down stroke.

I can honestly say, I could tell the difference in the way the horns played and sounded after the alignments.

With one of my horns, after Bob measured the out of alignment on all (3) valves he asked me "What is your worst playing and sounding valve combination on your horn?

I responded..."#2 & #3 Down" I told him that combination always sounded "strained" to me.

He then immediately turned over the piece of paper with the measurements and I saw #1 upstroke #2 downstroke and #3 downstroke was the highest total dimensional combination for being out of alignment.

After the alignment, I played my horn in front of Bob and all notes played and sounded very much even and alike.

When Bob heard me play he stated..."The notes are as even as they are on a Piano."

That is when I got a better understanding of the importance of a PVA.

It is also important to note that during all of my visits to Bob's shop, he educated me beyond belief regarding the valve alignment experiments he conducted with the many pros he worked with.

This included him explaining how he prioritizes the critical ports, compensated for holes in the valves that would not perfectly align with the corresponding tubing etc. etc. etc.

The education alone was worth the cash.

Guys like him won't be around forever therefore it is important that we respect them and learn as much as we can from them.
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[Retlaw]

[crzytptman]

[Dan O'Donnell]

I don't remember how far the valves were out of alignment and I can't find the form Bob gave me with the data.

For those TH members who can't understand why top quality pro horns have this issue...you need to understand that there are several dimensions with acceptable tolerances on several components that create the alignment between the valves and the tubing.

The top button, valve stem, top valve cap, diameter of port holes and position of port holes on the barrel of the valve etc. not to mention the diameter and location of the corresponding tubing in the Trumpet all stack up to create the amount of alignment (or misalignment) a valve has within the valve block.

It doesn't take too many dimensions...on very many components to create the misalignment.

When ALL horn manufacturers manufacture a horn, none of their valves are perfectly aligned due to the allowable tolerances needed due to inherent variation in even the best manufacturing processes.

IF they desire to have the valves perfectly aligned, they too must perform a PVA AFTER creating the critical dimensions on both the valves and the valve blocks prior to sending the horn to their customers which is an added cost to the manufacturer and many players are not willing to pay for it.

As for excess solder in the leadpipe and tuning slide...based on a Bore Scope...there was none.

This issue is easily avoidable in the manufacturing environment and if not avoidable it is certainly detectable and corrected prior to shipping to the customer.

As a Quality Control expert for (30)+ years with a Fortune 500 corporation and after spending several days at both Getzen's and Kanstul's manufacturing facility reviewing their Quality Systems and Process Controls, I can assure you, these guys are really good at what they do...create high quality Trumpets!
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[Bugler90]

Question; once alignment is done will you do that every two, four years? Or will it be a one time deal? I'm only guessing that it can be done more than once.

Luis
_________________
Stomvi Master:French Besson:Benge
Adolf Herseth:Every time you sound good your breathing is good
Maurice Andre:Often I hear people say,� He is gifted, he doesn't need to work". This is wrong. I am convinced that I work much more than all the others

[Dan O'Donnell]

When you use a hard material (unlike felt) there is no need to have them re-aligned for MANY years.

If you use a felt like material (above and below the valve cap), it will compress over time therefore there will be a need to adjust both the downward and upward stroke.

Note: The harder material feels a little different and is know to be just a little louder than felt however, it has a "positive stop" feel which helps to properly position the valves each time you depress and release them.

Check out Bob Reeves website for more information.
_________________
God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell

"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3

[Bugler90]

Cool, thanks for the info, I will check Reeves info on valve alignment.

Luis
_________________
Stomvi Master:French Besson:Benge
Adolf Herseth:Every time you sound good your breathing is good
Maurice Andre:Often I hear people say,� He is gifted, he doesn't need to work". This is wrong. I am convinced that I work much more than all the others

[crzytptman]

Preach, Brother Dan!

Glad to hear about the leadpipe/slide.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

[Retlaw]

[Bill Ortiz]

Thought I'd chime in with my experiences with PVAs and Bob Reeves. I've had it done with most of my horns and in each case it's made an improvement- with some a very big improvement. For me, it's made the horns more even in tone, feel and intonation every time. I now end up getting a better sound with less work.

The way it's been explained to me by a few horn techs- many new horns are mass manufactured at factories that don't spend the time or money to do a thorough valve adjustment check, and older horns will either have worn pads or incorrect ones. Bob will not only make pads with the correct size, but will machine the valves and/or ports if need be.

While it's true that getting a PVA can sometimes change the resistance of your horn a bit, they feel it's better to have a instrument that is more resonant and even up and down the horn, and adjust the resistance with your mouthpiece if need be (throat etc.). I also agree with that assessment.

Anyway, it's worked well for me-the good thing about having Bob Reeves do it is that they keep excellent records of all the horns they give a PVA. If you don't like it they can revert the horn to it's state beforehand.

Just me 2 cents :)
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'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA

[connicalman]

Isn't there a US maker who sells trumpets in C and Bb with Blackburn lead pipes and a PVA?
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kochaavim, csillaagkep, αστερρισμός, konnstelacji, connstellation... ...a.k.a. the 28A!
Other Conns: Victor 5A & 38A, New Wonder & 80A; 'stella 38A; 36A; 'quest 76A...

[maynard-46]

[Mark Curry]

[shofarguy]

No trumpet is ever going to have perfect alignment of every port on every valve. Technology has not progressed to the point where there are no dimensional tolerances in manufacturing. With each step forward in machining, we may get closer and produce products that have smaller variances, but there are still inconsistencies.

That said, it is not only important for an instrument to have the valves aligned, but it is just as important that the technician who performs it choose the best pattern of misalignment, as well. This has been written about before where one tech does the work and the horn plays worse, but another tech, who is familiar with that specific model trumpet, realigns the valves and the horn plays far better.

Pad material is very important. No one in the industry disputes that Bob Reeves has the best pad material. Its composition is Bob's most closely guarded secret. Other materials have problems with noise and/or dimensional stability over time and exposure to certain valve oils, so the player may have to put up with some slapping and, in some cases, pads may need to be replaced every few years.

I have had two trumpets aligned by Flip Oakes. Both needed some machining done to certain parts in order to arrive at a good alignment solution. Both horns played noticeably better with the alignment (or realignment in the recent case of my WT) than they did before. In the case of my Benge, I didn't really notice any increase in noise. As to my Wild Thing, the pads Flip originally installed were affected by oil, as I described above, so he redid his work with a material that is more stable, if a little noisy. Still, the bit of slap is only noticeable to me, the player. The horn came back playing fantastically.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Bill Ortiz]

Hi Butch, you're right about that.

When I had the guys at Bob Reeves Brass do a PVA for me the first time, they said if requested, they could restore the misalignment in regards to up and down stroke. Any machining of course couldn't be undone. They also mentioned that out of all the horns they've done a PVA on, only a very few ever wanted it the way it was before hand- I've been happy each time myself.
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA