Pitch

Trumpetlover · Regular Member Joined: 25 Feb 2003 Posts: 29

I am a type IV player and I was wondering if type IV's have a tendency to play sharp? One thing I think I have noticed is that as I get fatigued I play sharp. How long can fatigue last? Is it possible for fatigue to last all the way into the next playing day? What can one do if they are fatigued but still need to play in ensembles? Sorry for so many questions.

tptguy · Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:06 am Post subject:

I've seen this many times in the past and used to experience it myself. Invariably, it's due to pulling at the corners. Even if you are trying hard not to use a "smile" embouchure you no doubt are and it's getting more pronounced as you tire. Then, as you pull more at the corners you start to go sharp. Best regards, Kyle

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

I am a type IV player and I was wondering if type IV's have a tendency to play sharp? One thing I think I have noticed is that as I get fatigued I play sharp.

This is normal.

How long can fatigue last?

Short answer:
These are very general rules.
upsteam players can play longer but need a longer rest period than downstream players.

Is it possible for fatigue to last all the way into the next playing day?

Depends on if you are swollen and how fatigued you were from the day before.
Yes, it could be possible.

What can one do if they are fatigued but still need to play in ensembles?

There are so many possible answers to this that I could not tell you which answer or answers are correct without seeing you play.
(Dave S. video lesson)

Sorry for so many questions.
There are NEVER to many questions.
WEG

Wilktone · Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 8:18 am Post subject:

Heya, TL. How are things going? I have a few thoughts, being more familiar with your playing than anyone else here (for those of you who don't know, TL was a student of mine).

Docpivot · New Member Joined: 23 Nov 2002 Posts: 4

Here are some key points directly from the “The Encyclopedia of the Pivot System – for all cupped mouthpiece brass instruments,” chapter five, question number 104 – “What are some of the common pitfalls experienced by the lower mouthpiece placement groups (upstream types)?”

“3. The tendency to smile throughout all normal playing, rather than use the all-important lip pucker (especially while ascending), is often a common malady among this group of performers.”

“6. Generally speaking, upstream types require more frequent rest periods than downstreams types; however, upstream performers are capable of enormous playing stamina, if these rests are executed with some degree of regularity.”

“7. Strained, swollen lips often cause extraneous overtones, rattles, and fuzz throughout the middle register of the upstream performer. This form of playing strain is often called the “type four rattle.”

“8. Upstream types generally sound more brilliant, but less resonant, than the downstream types. This is one of the reasons why the performers in the symphonic field are rarely of the upstream variety.”

Trumpetlover – I am a Type IV and ditto to Dave Wilken’s comments.

I would add to his comments by saying that you are definitely over doing it If your chops are tired when you pick up the horn the next day. Do not play on tired, fatigued swollen lips. Your chops are talking to you so do not ignore them. As Doc would say, build up do not tear down.” You have to learn to pace yourself. If the gig is that strenuous either shorten (or temporarily eliminate) your practice periods. Use your practice periods to balance the type of playing required on the gig. For example, if the gig requires loud staccato playing, practice legato pianissimo (ala “Donald Reinhardt’s Selection of Concone Studies”).

I cannot emphasize enough, the importance pacing yourself.

Mike B.

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

I'll just say two things;

To quote Doc;"Get up from the table while you are still hungry."

And secondly, try using something on your chops before going to bed. Arnica gel (available in most health food stores) or this new stuff I've been using lately called "Zacks Crack Creme". its really good.

Chris

GTM · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:57 am Post subject:

In an effort to take care of "tired" lips, has anyone ever tried Zaja's CHOPS TIC (Topical Injury Cream)? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

I've also read about some of the ointment's the Dr. Reinhardt used to recommend, but can't seem to find them anywhere...are they still made?

Blessings,
_________________
Dr. Michael Guevara
Cinco Ranch Conservatory of Music
www.CincoRanchMusic.com
Golden Trumpet Ministries
Endorsing Artist - Wedge Mouthpieces and Phaeton Trumpets and Flugelhorns

tptguy · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:43 am Post subject:

“3. The tendency to smile throughout all normal playing, rather than use the all-important lip pucker "

“7. Strained, swollen lips "

Keep in mind that these two maladies are so interelated. The smile, even a modest one that doesn't show up much visually, but shows up in the pitch, then causes the lip pressure that causes the swollen lips. When playing is done correctly, no swelling will occur at all. Best regards, Kyle

Wilktone · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:30 pm Post subject:

tptguy · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:10 pm Post subject:

David, To be clear, I never suggested that smiling is the only cause of lip swelling. In fact, there are many causes of lip abuse and swelling. However, as I did point out in my last post, it is always a sign that something is wrong as swelling never accompanies a properly set up and developed embouchure, unless it's being abused, of course.

However, the original poster has another problem that greatly clarifies his particular scenario, the only scenario that I commented on; he pulls sharp when he tires. My posts point out that his two problems go hand-in-hand. Pulling at the corners causes the tuning issue and is at least one of the primary culprits causing the swelling. There are probably a number of other errors that lead to his swelling too. Without seeing or hearing him, I wouldn't venture a guess what they are. But, the first issue is easy as he hears it himself. Best regards, Kyle

DSR · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:16 pm Post subject:

tptguy, is this your personal opinion or are you talking about the teachings of Donald S. Reinhardt?

-Brendan

tptguy · Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:20 pm Post subject:

Brendan, Check my previous post, 2nd post in the thread. Best regards, Kyle

Wilktone · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:40 am Post subject:

Kyle, I think the confusion about your advice arose from your sentence, "Invariably, it's due to pulling at the corners. Even if you are trying hard not to use a "smile" embouchure you no doubt are and it's getting more pronounced as you tire."

"Invariably" implies that the smile embouchure is the only cause of fatigue and pitch troubles. I have worked with Trumpetlover for a year privately, and taught him Pivot System materials. I don't believe his problems are caused by a smiling embouchure unless he's developed it since I last worked with him.

One thing Dr. Reinhardt taught about the Type IV and IVA embouchures is that their greatest enemy can be movement. In other words, TL, don't over pivot. I also recall working with you on keeping your horn angle consistent while inhaling and not crashing your mouthpiece on your lips on every initial attack. That may cause swelling and fatigue as well.

For your pitch troubles you may want to work on the Spider Web Routine and find the core of the sound for each pitch. Let the pitch settle where it should, regardless of intonation for the moment. If you're pinching the pitch up and playing sharp you may be squeezing the notes high instead of finding the core of the sound.

TL, how's it going? It's time for an update on your progress. Have you watched your mouth corners for a smile? Are you still changing the horn angle on inhalations? Are you playing the Pivot Stabilizer and Spider Web daily and finding the core of the sound, being careful to not over-pivot?

Dave W.
_________________
wilktone.com

tptguy · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:19 am Post subject:

Dave,

<<"Invariably" implies that the smile embouchure is the only cause of fatigue and pitch troubles.>>

Though I will be happy to reiterate what I did say I should, once again, clarify what I didn't say. I never suggested that the smile embouchure is the only cause of fatique. And surely, I did not say that the smile embouchure is the only cause of pitch problems. However, I did say that I've "invariably" found that the specific situation that the original poster described, i.e. he pulls sharp as he tires, is caused by pulling at the corners. Later, I stated that pulling at the corners increases pressure and causes lip swelling so the two do go hand-in-hand; swelling follows pulling. But, I made no points about scenarios other than the precise one originally described. If you've found other issues that cause precisely his stated problem, I'm sure he'll appreciate hearing your feedback. But I'll repeat my findings once again: if you pull sharp as you tire then you are pulling at the corners. And, if you pull at the corners then you can expect swelling to follow soon after. Best regards, Kyle

Wilktone · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:13 am Post subject:

Thanks for clearing that up, Kyle.

According to the "Encylopdia of the Pivot System," here are some of the disadvantages in the smile system of playing:

1. marked limitations in range, power, flexibilty, and endurance
2. sluggish tonguing
3. an insecure attack
4. variations in tonal timbre between slurred and tongued notes
5. intonation inconsistencies (my italics)
6. excessive embouchure swelling (ditto)
7. excessive mouthpiece pressure (etc.)
8. excessive mouthpiece movement when tonguing in the lower register
9. an over-all nasalness in the high register
10. an over-balanced attack
11. a nervous insecure feeling
12. too much time required to maintain it.

(Encyclopedia, p. 176)

Kyle, this certainly supports your suggestion to watch for the smiling embouchure with the trouble TL described. TL, do you notice any of the other difficulties described above when you get fatigued? Either way, be sure you're doing the Trio of Playing Calisthenics daily. The buzzing routine in particular can be very useful for ridding yourself of any smiling habit you may have slipped into.

While I'm at it, let me quote Dave Sheetz's article "Quirks of the Types," which should offer some further suggestions for TL to check:

Wilktone · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:43 am Post subject:

I went through some of the videos I took of your playing, TL, and looked for a smile embouchure. It's not noticeable on any of the ones I kept, but it's possible you've developed this habit since then, or switch to it when you get fatigued. Check for it to be certain, but I believe the cause of your troubles to be elsewhere.

http://www.unca.edu/~dwilken/videos/tpt_week_2_triple_range.MPG

Dave W.
_________________
wilktone.com

bgibson · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Sep 2002 Posts: 211

Dave W;
Is it possible to see a close up from the front of TL doing the Pivot Stabilizer?
WEG

tptguy · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:31 pm Post subject:

Dave, Over the past few years I've gotten my formerly really messed up embouchure pretty well fixed. So now, when I'm fatigued I don't get any of the problems that you list. However, I used to get all of them! :>) Now, when I get fatiqued my very top note or two will shut off. Actually, I use a mouthpiece designed to shut off when the embouchure goes wrong, so that has helped me a lot. Regardless, a few seconds off the horn and I'm ready to go right back up and I can keep doing it for hours. I no longer get any swelling and by using the pitch cues I've stopped even the tiny traces of pulling at the corners. Best regards, Kyle

Mr.Hollywood · Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Dec 2002 Posts: 1730

Kyle,

Even though you studied with Doc many years ago, you told me that you now use Callets "Super Chops" embouchure.

Callet preaches no corner tension ( or very little) at all, which is exactly the polar opposite of Reinhardts teachings.

You must remember Doc talking about firm mouthcorners, and lots of buzzing to strengthen them.

I play with very firm mouthcorners "locked down" onto my eye teeth. I have excellent pitch and endurance, and can play to my very highest notes at the end of a hard four hour engagement.

I will agree that "smiling" (pulling the corners back towards your ears) is absolutely wrong, but strong firm mouthcorners are a MUST in the Pivot System.

Chris

tptguy · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:49 am Post subject:

Chris, If you review my posts on this thread I don't think you'll find that I've said a single thing about firm corners. My part in the discussion has always been strictly about pulling at the corners. Again referring to the original post, the thread was about a player going sharp as he fatigues. In my experience, this is due to pulling at the corners. As I say, no mention or discussion about tight corners at all. - Best regards, Kyle

[ This Message was edited by: tptguy on 2003-09-18 12:24 ]