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Sound Clips: Wild Thing Standard vs Copper Bell


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afp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Sound Clips: Wild Thing Standard vs Copper Bell Reply with quote

Okay, I don't really like any of these clips. I am not happy with my phrasing, especially on Hay Burner. My lack of air follow through makes me sound like a middle-school marching band trumpet. I thought I had resolved all that, but I guess not. Also, I am overblowing my High Gs and As.........you can hear the wasted effort in the sound. However, I have to quit fussing with making recordings and get back to regular practice, though recording sure is a good way to identify things you don't like in your sound and phrasing.

These were all recorded on a Zoom H2 in my two-car garage. Same MP and both horns had #2 slides in place. The copper bell seems more secure up high. Behind the horn there is a noticeable difference. Out front? Well, you decide................. These clips are all short.

Gosp John: http://youtu.be/sLTMx43ETvc

Brass Machine: http://youtu.be/4AagsrKmgIA

Carnival: http://youtu.be/EiDeEEkmeTE

Hindemith: http://youtu.be/dwnjhodkxMQ

Hay Burner: http://youtu.be/FAG0vcFJLIE

XMas Song: http://youtu.be/1pQ9NEwO3Lw

A Gliss: http://youtu.be/x_ew4ZPL-bc
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Fuzzy Dunlop
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You sound like a natural!
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wiemelen
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When listening to both horns, there is a difference in sound ... but it is a small subtle one. The sound of the copper bell, as expected, is a bit more rounded/warmer and has a softer touch. But the difference isn't that big.
In my opinion you would probably hear more difference when you experiment with different types of mouthpieces.

However, a little difference for the audience, does not take away the fact that there can be a huge difference for the player. In playing comfort, duration, security, feedback from the horn as wel as how you hear your own sound.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth I like the Copper bell sound more. I won't attempt to say why, as words can never describe a sound effectively.
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fredo
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer the overtones of the yellow brass bell, nice playing Blaine.
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this Blaine.... great straight forward comparison. The playing is great...we all hate our recorded sound....especially when it is dry. I can easily hear the difference and prefer the copper bell. I suppose I gravitate to that sound because that is what I have done with my B6. I would describe it as more refined...perhaps a little more accurate? If and when the day comes I think it would be copper for me..

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rapier232 wrote:
For what it's worth I like the Copper bell sound more. I won't attempt to say why, as words can never describe a sound effectively.


Hi

+ 1

All the best

Lou
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Shipham_Player
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Blaine nice playing. Don't put yourself down about the recording it's good enough for comparision.

Agree with other Copper bell sounds subtely better to me but there's not a great deal in it.

Thanks for posting.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the Copper bell seems to be the slightly better instrument, feel free to sell me the other one.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copper bell for me. It has a richness of tone with more colors. To my ears you sound more comfortable on it. Nice job.

Regarding your style on Hay Burner:
I have a copy of Basie Straight Ahead and the lead trumpet book from the album? Wow! We are not just talking about "swing" eight notes here. The lead playing and the entire band's phrasing for that matter is out of this world. It is a religious experience for me! So many community and professional big bands never approach these charts with the reverence they deserve. This is no reflection on your playing. Just a response to your mentioning the Hay Burner clip.

All the best,

Gordon
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Last edited by gstump on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:53 am; edited 2 times in total
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gbshelbymi
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're close, and the differences are hard for me to describe. I can say that I preferred the copper bell. I believe it produced a slightly more "focused" or "centered" sound. Again, really hard to put into words. But nice work, and a very useful set of videos. Thanks for doing this.

Suggestion: a blind A-B test might be revealing as well. Perhaps take your same recordings, but mix up the order of the two horns, and don't label them. Those results should be interesting!

Thanks again!
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gbdeamer
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked the copper better.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this - it's an interesting comparison.

But, that being said, I was really surprised by how similar they sound. For most of the clips, I found the difference small enough that it could have been the same horn at a slightly different angle to the mic.

I guess I'd better get back to practicing, rather than trumpet shopping.
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Oncewasaplayer
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this thread. Hearing and comparing sound files is useful. Nice playing.

The two horns seem similar yet the copper bell seems a bit warmer to my ear. Yet, the first horn is a fine sound and would do well in many settings. Thanks for this.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for you putting up clips Blaine! I like the copper better..more edge and higher overtones..however, that being said, you are getting a very open sound much more classical/orchestral style.. no lead sizzle or even more high overtones for jazz. It must be hard to play in the high register for long periods? I know the WT is a big horn..maybe you could experiment with offsetting the largeness of the horn with a shallower, tighter mouthpiece. Like a Wedge 5FC 27-30 throat and the KT backbore. If your lips bottom out on the shallower pieces make sure the diameter is right for your face and not too big and, also, the tighter your throat, the more your lips will be held in and you won't bottom out...that's a tip from Bob McCoy. Good luck with the new copper WT:-) Lex
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biltrpt
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting! Sound great too! Honestly, I like them both.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rapier232 wrote:
As the Copper bell seems to be the slightly better instrument, feel free to sell me the other one.


Repeated, in case you missed it first time round.
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afp
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the kind comments. I agree with the general consensus on the copper bell. It has a slightly darker core and it has a more ringing sound as well.

Lex,

I tend to have a darker sound, and I've been using my std WT for lead and it has worked exceptionally well. I think the copper will be fine out front, as the projection is fantastic and not something the mic picks up. Behind the horn it the copper does seem darker, but Bill Blackwell uses his copper for lead and says it works great. My jazz band starts again in a month so I will soon find out.

As to MPs, the one I am using is already much smaller than the one you are recommending. It is the height of a 5C but the width of less than a 10.5C--close to a 12 in width. It has a D cup which is as shallow as I can use. I am using a Warburton KT backbore cut for Reeves sleeves. It does have a #25 throat, and I am going to try a #27 throat--Dave will make my new top next week. However, while throat will help flexibility and reponse, and maybe add a little endurance, I doubt it will brighten the tone much. I have used that throat size before and still had my big dark sound. If needed, I can just push those high notes a little sharp to get them to sizzle more.

BTW, the copper bell is actually easier to play up high. The slots are a little more secure above High G--NOT what I expected.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job, Blaine!

Of course, you all realize that Blaine is playing 2 different horns. That could be more significant than the bell material. His brass bell WT was in the running when I was picking out mine. It is a great playing horn, and it's all Wild Thing, but I sound different on it than the one I picked.

I agree a blind test would be very interesting because, well . . . people like copper . . .
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afp
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest problem with a blind test is it is REALLY hard to keep the sound clips straight. My first recording session I didn't yell into the mic "Standard" or "Copper," and I had a hard time telling which was which.

So if I take my existing recordings and mix them up with no labels, would that work for a blind test? I would not just alternate horns, I would sometimes have two in a row from the same horn.
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