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Sound Clips: Wild Thing Standard vs Copper Bell


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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice A. I'd give my left you know what to get mine to lock like that.
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Bill Blackwell
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice, Blaine!

Thanks for posting the audio clips.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
Nice A. I'd give my left you know what to get mine to lock like that.


Thanks. I think the WT helps it slot, as does Chris Labarbera's approach. I actually need to become very secure on that note, as my wife is insisting we play MacArthur Park........
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never considered myself a guy that has those notes on call. I can put it out to a high g for a while and I can swing, which is what most band leaders are looking for anyway. I'd much rather play the second chair than the first, but here in NYC, there's a million jazz trumpet players and way fewer lead players so I get a few of those calls a month.

I will say that the B above it really sings when I can get all of it. No matter what though, the A, Bb, and the C are all squirrely - probably cause I never practice it. So yea, good on ya mate.
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And yes, Chris LaBarbera is the MAN - one of the most knowledgeable people on this board.
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Retlaw
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afp wrote:
The biggest problem with a blind test is it is REALLY hard to keep the sound clips straight. My first recording session I didn't yell into the mic "Standard" or "Copper," and I had a hard time telling which was which.

So if I take my existing recordings and mix them up with no labels, would that work for a blind test? I would not just alternate horns, I would sometimes have two in a row from the same horn.


The only reason to do the blind test is to prove that some people can tell the difference consistently and other can't ....

At the end of the day there is a difference but both horns sound great and on a recording it is a close call. Some prefer the yellow brass but it seems many prefer the copper...

Looks like a win win to me.

Walter
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very subtle difference in the two. It is also only on a narrow spectrum of the register and dynamic. Depending on the premium paid for it as a total package prob. well worth it but from a bell only stand point not even close to the premium charged on the retail side for just a bell made out of copper!

I would bet that if we listed to 10 guys each with a yellow brass version and a copper belled version we would hear a greater difference from one to the next.

I have to say I did favor the copper bells sound but it was so slight and subtle that blind I doubt most people could tell.

That said sound behind the bell could be radically different with out much difference in front of the bell. That is one reason I always tell people if they can to take a recording device or a buddy that plays trumpet because what you hear behind a bell and in front of a bell is totally different.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very subtle difference in the two. It is also only on a narrow spectrum of the register and dynamic. Depending on the premium paid for it as a total package prob. well worth it but from a bell only stand point not even close to the premium charged on the retail side for just a bell made out of copper!

I would bet that if we listed to 10 guys each with a yellow brass version and a copper belled version we would hear a greater difference from one to the next.

I have to so I did favor the copper bells sound but it was so slight and subtle that blind I doubt most people could tell.

That said sound behind the bell could be radically different with out much difference in front of the bell. That is one reason I always tell people if they can to take a recording device or a buddy that plays trumpet because what you hear behind a bell and in front of a bell is totally different.
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jiarby
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer the copper bell for myself... I use a Kanstul 1601 (ThX Tim!)

The problem with your Hay Burner clip is the time feel. In your head hear Freddie Green cranking out the time. Be accurate with your rhythms, but not so precise that you sound lifeless and sterile. It has to swing. Add some of your own personal style. Imagine how Snooky would do it versus Dave Stahl or Lin Biviano.

I recorded a 20 second clip, using just an Olds Ambassador (with Bach 5C) and my Yamaha W24 Recorder. No mixing or editing. You can here how I interpret that excerpt.

Here it is on SoundCloud: http://snd.sc/1cQH0cI
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh I know exactly how it should sound, but how I played it isn't how it recorded.......................must have a defective Zoom H2.........

I like that lick very similar to what you did.
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INTJ
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Sailors wrote:
I've never considered myself a guy that has those notes on call. I can put it out to a high g for a while and I can swing, which is what most band leaders are looking for anyway. I'd much rather play the second chair than the first, but here in NYC, there's a million jazz trumpet players and way fewer lead players so I get a few of those calls a month.

I will say that the B above it really sings when I can get all of it. No matter what though, the A, Bb, and the C are all squirrely - probably cause I never practice it. So yea, good on ya mate.


One thing we need to keep in mind is the difference of perspective between an amateur and a pro. If after a 1.5 hour rehearsal or a 1 hour gig I can nail a High G, I say I have a High G. I would imagine for you, you would need to nail that High G after a four hour combo gig before you'd say you have a High G.

I actually don't like Double Bb and Double B. Hardest notes on the horn. I have been able to force a DHC for some time, but I have to play correctly, with restraint and focus, to get the Bs. Maybe I should just play that way all the time.....................
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great experiment!

I agree with the fact that it is almost impossible to explain sound with words.

If you were to visualize the sound pattern for each of the horns, they would be as follows...

Brass Bell = sharp peaks of a jagged edge of a saw blade.

Copper Bell = rounded peaks of a very dull edge of a saw blade

The Brass bell was too bright or strained for my liking.

The Copper bell was full, rich and warm yet cutting.

My personal preference was the Copper bell sound.

Both sounds are different...not right or wrong...just different.

I would also say that the Brass bell seemed to have more higher overtones than the Copper bell and the Copper bell more lower overtones.

I'm a HUGE fan of Chris Botti's and Rick Braun's sound and I play most of my solos on a Getzen Genesis with KO's Flex 3C Double Cup MP with a symphonic Backbore which gives you an idea as to the sound I enjoy, play and one that perfectly meets the needs of the music I play.

I have a Kanstul 925 Flugelhorn with a Copper Bell and a Kanstul 1510 C Trumpet with a Copper Bell for the exact reasons I noted above.

If I wanted a brighter and screaming lead sound...I would stay with the sound YOU get from the Brass bell.

Thanks for sharing..you are a very good player therefore, avoid the tendency to down-play, minimize and make excuses for your playing when you play so well!
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Dan O'Donnell
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOps...I forgot...

I apologize for mentioning Getzen's Genesis on this "Wild Thing Herald" website...
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pfeifela
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaine, if you ever get headed toward Portland give me a shout.......I'll do the same if I go toward Southern Oregon. It would be fun to do a horn experiment.....I have a WT that is entirely copper plated. I would never have done that to the horn, but I bought it used at a fair price.....and I would have taken it with ANY finish. The original owner sent it (I believe) to Tom Green who did a complete copper plating of the entire horn....even the finger buttons. I'm a WT fan for sure, but the finish is too flashy for me. I'd love to play a WT with another finish just to see what the sound and feedback is like on (normal) WT and how much the full copper plating affects the sound of the horn. And maybe you'd enjoy trying out the full copper plating package. Interestingly, I spoke with Flip about a year ago regarding making a raw brass WT and he stated categorically that he would not make the horn without a finish. Many years ago I read TH post from someone that owned a raw brass WT and stated that it was the only one in existence........which it apparently was......and to complete the story; I just saw it on Ebay a week ago and it sold for $1,650.

Thanks for posting the clips. You sound great! I definitely prefer the copper bell sound, but I also wonder how much difference in sound there may be from one WT to the next with the same bells.
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pfeifela
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
OOps...I forgot...

I apologize for mentioning Getzen's Genesis on this "Wild Thing Herald" website...


Oops, I also forgot...

I apologize for using an avatar of my Getzen Genesis while I'm speaking of my Wild Thing..........sacrilege.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh didn't realize it was already fairly small diameter Blaine..Been awhile since I played on Dave Harrison's stuff..Great concept he had and I know he develops new designs, etc. I used to have a 12FC top which was based on a Warburton ES or ESV cup. You say you can't go shallower than a 'D' cup..just wondering what happens if you do. Do you bottom out? Best, Lex
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hose
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaine,

Thanks for posting an interesting comparison. No point of repeating what others have said so eloquently. I agree with Dan O'Donnell and his excellent sound descriptions. I think the copper bell "covered up" some otherwise explosive notes that stood out with the brass bell. The brass bell had more overtones throughout the whole sound spectrum. I've heard myself on the H2 and on a pro sound system. Not the same to judge. Even so, we could all hear the difference.

You're very critical on yourself. You sound very good.
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hose
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaine,

Thanks for posting an interesting comparison. No point of repeating what others have said so eloquently. I agree with Dan O'Donnell and his excellent sound descriptions. I think the copper bell "covered up" some otherwise explosive notes that stood out with the brass bell. The brass bell had more overtones throughout the whole sound spectrum. I've heard myself on the H2 and on a pro sound system. Not the same to judge. Even so, we could all hear the difference.

You're very critical on yourself. You sound very good.
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just fredo and i liking the brass bell. lovely roundness to the copper sound but that is just one part of the spectrum.
as the instrument is a trumpet i will take the high overtones please. there is more than one approach to making spaghetti sauce.
..chuck
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Flip Oakes
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Blaine,

Sounding good! Nice playing... I have a nice Bose system for my computer, and could hear the difference in both horns.

Thanks,

Flip Oakes
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