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Sound Clips: Wild Thing Standard vs Copper Bell


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afp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ljazztrm wrote:
Oh didn't realize it was already fairly small diameter Blaine..Been awhile since I played on Dave Harrison's stuff..Great concept he had and I know he develops new designs, etc. I used to have a 12FC top which was based on a Warburton ES or ESV cup. You say you can't go shallower than a 'D' cup..just wondering what happens if you do. Do you bottom out? Best, Lex


I have an E cup version of my MP and I do bottom out out. Also, I get no better upper range support. Conversely, I have a C cup version of that MP and it has no better tone, but I do like it on the picc. It is possible I could use an E cup if I went to an even smaller diameter, but I really hate to downsize any more. I like the sound I am getting. The standard bell works great as a lead horn with my current set up, and if I can't get the copper bell to work for lead I'll just use the standard. BTW, while the Zoom H2 is much better than an iPhone mic, it doesn't capture all the overtones that are present. Maybe it's time for me to get an H4?

I will take both horns to gigs and rehearsals and use whichever one fits a given tune best. For Embraceable You, the copper will be better because the High E near the end is best without much edge, but it still needs to be a big sound. For Jazz Police, I think the more secure slotting of the copper bell will help with that stupid shout lick near the end. Even though edge is good there, I think the copper projects so well it won't matter. For Goodwin's Lester Leaps in, the edgier tone of the standard bell will be better.

The cool thing is to have the option of two horns with different sound characteristics that play almost identically.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no difference in the clips at all.

If they sound different, its becuase you played different. Sell one, flip a coin.

Unless money is not an issue, or you just want to have two identical horns, with one being a backup. But there is no difference caused by copper as opposed to brass. The other variables between the horns are way more important.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blaine,

I finally got the chance to listen to the clips you posted. Here is what I believe I hear.

1) Nice and consistent playing.

2) A difference in receiver gap. The copper horn seems a little short. The high octave is easier to land with solid tone, but the pitch is lower than the brass horn. The brass horn is a little less eager to resonate (hence the added airiness in your tone), is less responsive and displays a certain "far-away" quality to the tone. Intonation on the octave glissando is maybe just a tad too high. In my experience, those are indications of a receiver gap that is too large. To translate into my own context, the copper horn sounds like you're using a 6.5 Reeves sleeve, the brass horn a 5.5 (or even a 5) when both should use a #6 sleeve.

3) I could hear the "aw-w-w" quality in the copper that Flip talks about. It happens in the range between middle C and high C. The brass bell certainly has more edge in the range below that and sounds more alive down there, at least on these recordings. The upper register tone seemed the same to my admittedly damaged ears.

4) The brass horn easily overpowered your recorder on a few occasions. The copper horn did not. That is telltale evidence that the brass bell has greater frequency response, compared to the copper bell. Nothing new there. So, again as Flip and others have mentioned, it likely that the copper horn is best suited for smaller, more intimate venues, while the brass horn is able to fill larger spaces with a fuller spectrum of sound.

5) The brass horn surpasses the copper at producing a symphonic trumpet sound. This is, once again, the greater assertion of the high frequency overtones lacking in the copper horn's tone in the middle register.

6) The copper horn may be a better individual instrument than your particular brass horn. This happens and nothing can predict or alter that result. The trumpet that Flip sent to Arturo, the one in the recent video clips of Arturo playing God Bless America at a baseball game, is what Flip calls, "The best trumpet I've ever played in my life." The responsiveness, security, tone and other characteristics of your copper trumpet may simply be better.

Try something for us, just as an experiment. Trade tuning slides and tell us what, if anything, changes between horns. Pay attention to slotting throughout your range, security and timbre. It will be interesting to read your observations.

This is a fun thread.
Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn

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afp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
Thanks for sharing..you are a very good player therefore, avoid the tendency to down-play, minimize and make excuses for your playing when you play so well!


Okay guys, point taken. False humility is worse than open arrogance, and since pretty much everyone here knows my skill level, I don't need to prove how much I know by complaining about my own errors. Just please don't tell my pro player trumpet teacher how I clipped the notes at the end of the Hay Burner lick.
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afp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pfeifela wrote:
Blaine, if you ever get headed toward Portland give me a shout.......I'll do the same if I go toward Southern Oregon. It would be fun to do a horn experiment.....I have a WT that is entirely copper plated. I would never have done that to the horn, but I bought it used at a fair price.....and I would have taken it with ANY finish. The original owner sent it (I believe) to Tom Green who did a complete copper plating of the entire horn....even the finger buttons. I'm a WT fan for sure, but the finish is too flashy for me. I'd love to play a WT with another finish just to see what the sound and feedback is like on (normal) WT and how much the full copper plating affects the sound of the horn. And maybe you'd enjoy trying out the full copper plating package. Interestingly, I spoke with Flip about a year ago regarding making a raw brass WT and he stated categorically that he would not make the horn without a finish. Many years ago I read TH post from someone that owned a raw brass WT and stated that it was the only one in existence........which it apparently was......and to complete the story; I just saw it on Ebay a week ago and it sold for $1,650.

Thanks for posting the clips. You sound great! I definitely prefer the copper bell sound, but I also wonder how much difference in sound there may be from one WT to the next with the same bells.


Larry,

We really need to get you down here. My teacher--an excellent pro player, now has a gold plated WT. After playing mine a few times he commented about how much easier it was to play than his old, worn-out Bach 43. As he and I were searching for a used WT, we came across what I think is your horn. Anyway, if you can get down here we'll have a lacquer WT, a copper bell WT, a copper plated WT, and a gold plated WT.
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afp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian,

A while ago, I had tried a #5, 5.5, 6, 6.5, and 7 in my standard horn and I settled on the #7 sleeve (.100 gap). When I tried that #7 (same gap at .100) in the copper bell it felt a tiny bit stuffy, so I went to a 6.5 (.120) for the copper and liked it. Then I tried the 6.5 (.130--yes, it measured .010 more) in the standard horn and liked it better too. A couple days ago I got that crossed up. I played both horns, liked them both, then discovered I had used the #7.

Logically, the #7 ought to go in the copper bell since the copper bell has more secure slots, and the 6.5 should go in the standard horn to firm up the slots. However, I think I like both best with the 6.5, such to the point I ordered another one from Flip.

The issue with the octave glisses was just that I overpowered them. I did the same thing on the G in the Brass machine clip. All the other horns I have played would shut off when doing that, but as you know, it's nearly impossible to overblow a WT. A cardinal rule when playing in the upper range is to NEVER over blow. Those notes carry and project when they are focused and in tune to a little sharp. Behind the horn a High G or A may only seem like mezzo piano, but out front it is very well heard.

Anyway, those High Gs and As slotted so well for me that instead of just letting them ring I stepped on them. Playing over a big band that airiness would not be heard, but in a quiet garage it is very evident.

Flip mentioned trading slides would cause noticeable changes, but I am leery. What if I like the same slide for both horns?


Last edited by afp on Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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digs
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed your playing very much!

I prefer the copper based on these recordings. The reason why is that horn sounds much more consistent in timbre across all registers and dynamics that you played. The brass was way less consistent sounding to me (timbre-wise). Some people love that, some say it "lights up" in the upper register or at higher volumes. I prefer a more consistent sound across registers and volume levels. I'm not saying I like a dark or broad sound, I'm just saying I like the horn to be consistent in timbre.

Great playing!
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice sound. All that other stuff aside, it just sounds like you enjoy playing your new toy more than your old toy. I really don't think the differences amount to much more than that. And yes, nice A. Never had much of one, but that's not why you called.

Ed
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etc-etc
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

afp wrote:
The biggest problem with a blind test is it is REALLY hard to keep the sound clips straight. My first recording session I didn't yell into the mic "Standard" or "Copper," and I had a hard time telling which was which.

So if I take my existing recordings and mix them up with no labels, would that work for a blind test? I would not just alternate horns, I would sometimes have two in a row from the same horn.


Blaine,

An even better setup is a double-blind test - where neither you nor we know which of the two horns you are playing. To record which horn you were playing, ask for help of an assistant who would give you the horns in some not obvious to you order, possibly including a couple non-WT horns in the cycle.
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afp
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am more accurate on the copper bell. As to a double blind test, I immediately know which horn I am playing, and the only other Bb trumpet I have--which is for sale--feels different to hold.

I did get both horns in front of a pro today. He said both horns sound good, so now let's get to the lesson.
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pfeifela
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

afp wrote:
pfeifela wrote:
Blaine, if you ever get headed toward Portland give me a shout.......I'll do the same if I go toward Southern Oregon. It would be fun to do a horn experiment.....I have a WT that is entirely copper plated. I would never have done that to the horn, but I bought it used at a fair price.....and I would have taken it with ANY finish. The original owner sent it (I believe) to Tom Green who did a complete copper plating of the entire horn....even the finger buttons. I'm a WT fan for sure, but the finish is too flashy for me. I'd love to play a WT with another finish just to see what the sound and feedback is like on (normal) WT and how much the full copper plating affects the sound of the horn. And maybe you'd enjoy trying out the full copper plating package. Interestingly, I spoke with Flip about a year ago regarding making a raw brass WT and he stated categorically that he would not make the horn without a finish. Many years ago I read TH post from someone that owned a raw brass WT and stated that it was the only one in existence........which it apparently was......and to complete the story; I just saw it on Ebay a week ago and it sold for $1,650.

Thanks for posting the clips. You sound great! I definitely prefer the copper bell sound, but I also wonder how much difference in sound there may be from one WT to the next with the same bells.


Larry,

We really need to get you down here. My teacher--an excellent pro player, now has a gold plated WT. After playing mine a few times he commented about how much easier it was to play than his old, worn-out Bach 43. As he and I were searching for a used WT, we came across what I think is your horn. Anyway, if you can get down here we'll have a lacquer WT, a copper bell WT, a copper plated WT, and a gold plated WT.


There' a gold plated WT in the Marketplace right now that I'm slobbering over.....and yes, we need to link up sometime.
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ljazztrm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Blaine, that's cool man. I see where you're coming from re: mouthpieces. Just remember Bob McCoy's tip if you ever need to get that real lead 'sizzle'. I like to pass it onto cats since I don't think he wrote that down and while he may still be playing lead in Johnny Carson's band somewhere, I think it would be exceedingly difficult to contact him!
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KanstulBrass
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice playing. I guess I'd better get back to the shed...
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like what I am hearing from both horns Like Walter, I am very used to the copper-belled sound (I'm listening to Bill Chase as I write this) of my B5 and B6 and for lead, I would want the copper-belled WT based on these sound clips. This is not to say that I would not want the brass-belled version for jazz, classical or church; since I believe that it has a stronger, more complex sound within the staff. I play on a lead setup and I find that the WT can really sing in the upper register; the brass-belled horn can get very bright and edgy when pushed. Based on these sound clips, I could easily live with either horn...I wish that I had both!!!
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael Drapp wrote:
I like what I am hearing from both horns Like Walter, I am very used to the copper-belled sound (I'm listening to Bill Chase as I write this) of my B5 and B6 and for lead, I would want the copper-belled WT based on these sound clips. This is not to say that I would not want the brass-belled version for jazz, classical or church; since I believe that it has a stronger, more complex sound within the staff. I play on a lead setup and I find that the WT can really sing in the upper register; the brass-belled horn can get very bright and edgy when pushed. Based on these sound clips, I could easily live with either horn...I wish that I had both!!!


thank you michael for dialing this in. the trumpet for me is a singing jazz voice and singing is done in the staff. if i were an upper register hound i would appreciate what the copper WT brings to the table. lower register too i suppose. as it is the overtones in the staff hooked me from the moment i blew the brass version.
flip oakes has no monopoly on good sounding trumpets. his edge is that the instruments sound good, and have an enhanced ease of play which in the end is astounding.
..chuck
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Michael Drapp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
Michael Drapp wrote:
I like what I am hearing from both horns Like Walter, I am very used to the copper-belled sound (I'm listening to Bill Chase as I write this) of my B5 and B6 and for lead, I would want the copper-belled WT based on these sound clips. This is not to say that I would not want the brass-belled version for jazz, classical or church; since I believe that it has a stronger, more complex sound within the staff. I play on a lead setup and I find that the WT can really sing in the upper register; the brass-belled horn can get very bright and edgy when pushed. Based on these sound clips, I could easily live with either horn...I wish that I had both!!!


thank you michael for dialing this in. the trumpet for me is a singing jazz voice and singing is done in the staff. if i were an upper register hound i would appreciate what the copper WT brings to the table. lower register too i suppose. as it is the overtones in the staff hooked me from the moment i blew the brass version.
flip oakes has no monopoly on good sounding trumpets. his edge is that the instruments sound good, and have an enhanced ease of play which in the end is astounding.
..chuck


Thanks Chuck,

Yeah, the thing that impressed me most in the beginning was that the sound profile of the brass-belled WT could be changed so easily; either by my playing style or a mouthpiece change...and this meant "single horn" versatility for a lot of different playing styles (i.e. gigs). It will get hot and edgy when I want it and the next tune I can make it sweet like a Bach 37. Particularly within the staff, the sound can be made to be very complex and you can dial in the amount of core and projection that you want. This makes it an easy horn to live with and a true blessing for the traveling pro. I can't wait to try the copper-belled version, but at present I have no complaints with the brass-belled variety

Mike
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use 3 mpcs with my WT: 3C-O for everyday, 3XT for what it does, and 3-L for lead and hot playing. I like the copper WT that I played at Flip's, but it wasn't as versatile as what I have. Flip played it with a L mpc and it was in your face, but when he played on my horn it was "move over bacon..."

I gave that particular copper WT a slight edge in the mellow, rich sound. My brass WT still has a mellow, rich sound but I can go sizzlean when I want to.

That's not saying there isn't a copper WT that can do it all. Different horns are different horns. Blaine's brass WT didn't do it for me like mine does, but it's still a great example of a Wild Thing.

Blaine, in your recordings the sound is so close I would just pick the horn that plays the best for me.
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afp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last night during practice I was swapping back and forth. It is amazing how close to each other they play. I was trying to convince myself the copper was making me push a little sharp. However, when I'd immediately grab the brass, the pitch was the same--it was just hot I the garage last night and that drives me sharp.
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